EAST LANCS TERRITORIALS CAP BADGE

[max7474]

All,

Similiar question to my Bedfordshire one. PSA a white metal badge to the East Lancashire Regiment. It is one piece (ie the scroll is part of the main badge and has not been added on ; I am sure we have all seen the pre 1908 VB badges that are nothing of the sort but the result of a bit of work with a soldering iron a regular badge and a new South Africa scroll or 1st VB plaque!). The scroll is deliberately blank and has not been adulterated to make it that way.

gaylor's book states that the pre 1922 East Lancs wore a blank scroll regular badge and later (post 1922) the militia battalion were passed the normal regular patttern badges but with reversed metals when the regulars refused to wear them. Reginald Cox shows this badge as well as worn by the East lancs but does not mention why they had 2 types? Anyone know?

Options

1. The 4th and 5th Bns had different types as one went to SAfrica and one did not.

2. differnt orders of dress - No1 dress - was the all white metal one perhaps?

3. Rank thing again - SNCOs badge maybe?

Any thoughts?

[kingsman64]

Hi

This TF (territorial force) badge dates from post 1902 when the battalions who supplied volunteers for South Africa could claim the battle honour hence the S.A. scroll but not the distinction of having previously served in Eygpt like the regulars. Hence the blank tablet under the sphinx.

Does that help?

Regards.

[max7474]

Yes, but I still cannot work out why a Battalion had 2 badges. Reginald Cox's book badges of the British empire in the Great War (or similiar tilte memory fails me) has both shown but no explanation for the existance of 2 types. A lot of TA Bns had different patterns for Officers with an extra scroll or differnt design but I don't think this is an officers as it is not silver and has lugs and Cox is very good at listing separte officer patterns elewhere.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The 4th & 5th TF Battalions wore both this badge & a similar one,White Metal ,but with a Gilding Metal Rose & without the Scroll {K & K1721 & 1722} The Anomaly arose I think due to the fact that although Members of the Pre Territorial Volunteer Battalion served in South Africa,Numbers were very Small as they were Volunteer Companies on attachment to the Parent Batalion in Africa,Consequently when the TF Badges were instituted after 1908 Many of them[TF Regiments] who had Companies in South Africa somewhat erronously placed the "SA 1899~1902" scroll on their Badges,{ the Cambridgeshire Regiment Had a Similar One with the SA Scroll which was Rapidly Removed by the Powers that be{They had a Vol.Coy of the VB Suffolk Regt serving in SA}They were mostly Short lived.being replaced by the later Non Scroll Type.

[CROONAERT]

1. The 4th and 5th Bns had different types as one went to SAfrica and one did not.

2.  differnt orders of dress - No1 dress - was the all white metal one perhaps?

3.  Rank thing again - SNCOs badge maybe?

Both battalions (1VB and 2VB as they were then) served in South Africa. Warrant officers did wear a badge of silver, but I've never seen a 4th or 5th Bn one with the added SA scroll (Harrybetts's explaination (above) of your badge is probably the best, though, personally, I've never come across it in the East Lancs). Pre 1908, the VB badges were all in white metal, but that's a post 1908 badge. The scroll was only added in 1905 (but was dropped when the 1VB and 2VB became the 4th and 5th Bns). A bit of a mystery - does it seem to be "cast" rather than stamped?

Anyway to illustrate, this is the 2VB badge of the type worn 1905-1908.....

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

Anyway to illustrate, this is the 2VB badge of the type worn 1905-1908.....

...which became the 5th Bn East Lancs who wore the badge illustrated here from 1908 to 1922 (4th Bn badge was identical)....

[CROONAERT]

The previously mentioned pre 1908 3rd (Militia) Battalion badge which was passed on to (dumped on to?)the 4th and 5th then the 4th/5th Battalions in the 1920's and 30's...

[CROONAERT]

...and now my own little mystery.

This is a "sand cast" brass 2VB badge, commonly known as a "Bazaar" badge due to the place of their manufacture. These were usually made for the Territorial batallions based in India during WW1, so why do I have a 1905 - 1908 badge made in the wrong metal for a unit that wasn't in India?

By the way, it seems very old and is very well made.

Dave.

[max7474]

t is most definately stamped and not cast.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

...and now my own little mystery.

This is a "sand cast" brass 2VB badge, commonly known as a "Bazaar" badge due to the place of their manufacture. These were usually made for the Territorial batallions based in India during WW1, so why do I have a 1905 - 1908 badge made in the wrong metal for a unit that wasn't in India?

By the way, it seems very old and is very well made.

Dave.

These "Bazaar" Badges have as you rightly say been around for decades,the most likely explanation being that the Caster had access to such a Badge,from a serving East Lancashire Lad,{The Cast Moulds being taken from Originals,which leads to the Cast Version being slightly smaller than the Original}who wanted a Copy of his Old VB Badge,they were ,generally always cast in Brass regardless of the Original Metal,as that is what the Indian Craftsmen worked with,they were not offically sanctioned Badges,though undoubtedly worn,& probably much cheaper than buying a Badge from the Stores,They are interesting Curiosities,especially when ,as in this case they pertain to units that didnt serve in India.