Guards Pte to Guardsman as a rank

[patrick anderson]

In the last weeks I've had the request to add the Great War casualty Pte ( Guardsman) 6461 James McHardy BIRSE, Scots Guards to the roll of honour at the SCOTTISH NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL , the Castle in EDINBURGH as he died of serious wounds received in action at Ypres on 25th Oct 1914 as he had Five bad wounds and his Clavicle had been shot away . He was a POW in Germany and in a war hospital there before being exchanged due to his serious wounds . He would not be able to return to the British Army to soldier so the Germans agreed he be exchanged and sent home . He had been a Postie in Dundee and was discharged unfit for War Serviced and died of his wounds in Dundee on 8th November 1918 not seeing the War was ended a few days later . He is buried in Balgay Cemetery Dundee . (The Casualty is listed with the Imperial War Graves Commission (CWGC ) registers.

I applied to have Pte 6461 Birse ,, Scots Guards to be added to the Scottish National War Memorial roll of honour and Lt Col Roger J . Binks , the keeper of the Rolls at the SNWM accepted the casualty as a war death but said that although the Great War service records forwarded to him he will record the casualty as being Gdsm 6461 Birse , Scots Guards as the Guards Division ranks changed from Private to Guardsman after that War .

Does anyone know when the Guards Division ranks changed from Pte to Gdsm ? . Was there any order in military regulations for this change to be approved and any reason why the ranks were changed post WW1 ??

Thank you for your assistance

Patrick w Anderson

[Steven Broomfield]

I always thought the change was at the same time that Line Cavalry privates became Troopers (around 1922). At the same time, I assume, Rifles regiments adopted "Rifleman".

[Coldstreamer]

I will look at the lsgc rolls later to see when that changed but I thought it was 1920

[ss002d6252]

Apparently the army website (presumably the MOD site) states 1919 - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32807&p=261239

Craig

[johnboy]

Should he not be recorded with the rank at the time of his death ?

[ss002d6252]

Should he not be recorded with the rank at the time of his death ?

That would be the official rank.

Craig

[Coldstreamer]

LSGC roll has Guardsman in 1919

[Derek Black]

Should he not be recorded with the rank at the time of his death ?

There are 571 casualties on CWGC with their rank given as Guardsman.

They're not specific to any particular regiment, there's Coldstream, Grenadier, Machine Gun, Irish, Scots and Welsh Guards.

It's clear the vast majority on CWGC are listed correctly as a Private.

[EDIT]

225 of the Guardsmen are from 22/11/1918, so only 346 men are listed as guardsmen instead of Private before this date.

[nigelcave]

I suspect it is a bit like the 'c' in various Wels©h regiments, with much to-ing and fro-ing and the IWGC presumably left in the middle.

[roughdiamond]

My Gt Gt Uncle 5588 John Barton listed in my signature was KIA 11/11/14, his Service Record, CWGC entry and his entry on the Regimental Death returns all list him as Private, yet the Scottish National War Memorial lists him as "Gdsm", for some unexplained reason.

Sam

[tullybrone]

Hi,

King George V announced change from Private to Guardsman on 22nd November 1918 as "a mark of his Majesty's appreciation and pride of the splendid services rendered by The Brigade of Guards during the war" quoted from Julian Paget's book The Story of The Guards first published 1976.

Steve Y

[Ron Clifton]

All of them would have been Privates when they died but, presumably in deference to the King's wishes, the CWGC commemorates them as Guardsmen. The SNWM is presumably applying the same principle.

Ron

[roughdiamond]

Out of curiosity I did a search for Scots Guards death on CWGC from 1st September 1918, it listed 181 men, 36 were L/Cpl and above, 14 were listed as Guardsman but the remaining 131 were listed as Private, taking Steve's date above of 22/11/1918, 1 x man KIA is listed as Guardsman and 12 x men as Private on and after that date till 31/12/1918, so there seems to be no specifics to the ranks.

Edited to add: - The earliest death of the 95 Scots Guards listed as Guardsman in WW1 was 12/09/1914, the earliest Guardsman listed was a Grenadier on 01/09/1914.

Sam

[johnboy]

Would the rank shown on his MiC be the one on his medals? If so, then that should be the rank shown on any memorial?

[TwoEssGee]

Of the 61 Scots Guardsmen who died after November 1918 (and up to August 1921), only 7 are listed as Private. 38 are listed as Guardsman, plus 2 Pipers and one Drummer.

After the second week of December 1918, only 2 are listed as Private, so the change seems to have been implemented pretty quickly.

[patrick anderson]

thanks folks for all that info and I too would have thought his rank on discharge would be the one he would be listed with on a roll of honour but at least he is now listed on the SNWM at the Edinburgh Castle after all these years of not being listed as he had been discharged in War and the Regimental Record office had not taken his name into account when forwarding the true casualty report to the War Office records office

Great info

pat w anderson