Telescope Help

[codyajax]

Found a telescope with engraving "Sinclair Haymarket London". It should be from around 1915 - 1919.

Few pictures are attached. Any info on this would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

[johnboy]

Any markings on the case that might indicate service issue?

[MikB]

Presumably these are the folks wot done it...

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/James_A._Sinclair_and_Co

It looks as if cameras - especially movie - were their central interest, at least in the 20s.

If you try Webster's database, you'll find a much earlier Sinclair in Covent Garden:-

http://historydb.adlerplanetarium.org/signatures/search.pl?signature=sinclair&limit=100&searchfields=Signature&search=1&offset=0

At first the straight knurl on the eyecup made me think the scope's a repro from the Subcontinent, but the leather endcaps look longer than the fakirs use, and the stitching on the barrel cover looks right as far as I can see, as does its colour. The finish on the eyecup is also better than on the repros I've seen.

I've not come across this maker before, and don't know anything about their history - but the general period looks *about* right.

What gave the date you mentioned?

Regards,

MikB

[codyajax]

Presumably these are the folks wot done it...

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/James_A._Sinclair_and_Co

It looks as if cameras - especially movie - were their central interest, at least in the 20s.

If you try Webster's database, you'll find a much earlier Sinclair in Covent Garden:-

http://historydb.adlerplanetarium.org/signatures/search.pl?signature=sinclair&limit=100&searchfields=Signature&search=1&offset=0

At first the straight knurl on the eyecup made me think the scope's a repro from the Subcontinent, but the leather endcaps look longer than the fakirs use, and the stitching on the barrel cover looks right as far as I can see, as does its colour. The finish on the eyecup is also better than on the repros I've seen.

I've not come across this maker before, and don't know anything about their history - but the general period looks *about* right.

What gave the date you mentioned?

Regards,

MikB

Thanks for your reply.

I also found the receipt for the purchase. It was purchased in 1917 from Biddulph Rawlins.

Any markings on the case that might indicate service issue?

No other markings I'm afraid.

[MikB]

I also found the receipt for the purchase. It was purchased in 1917 from Biddulph Rawlins.

How much did he pay? A budget 2" deerstalking telescope from Negretti & Zambra retailed at £6-15s-0d in 1921. If this is a 2" scope it might cost a bit less because it doesn't have the pancratic drawtube that varies the magnification - but OTOH is has a leather covering instead of canvas, and a nice blacked finish; that looks in very good condition if original.

It would be difficult to refinish without blacking the maker's engraving as well - it was usual to cut this through the original blacking to give a contrasting finish.

[codyajax]

How much did he pay? A budget 2" deerstalking telescope from Negretti & Zambra retailed at £6-15s-0d in 1921. If this is a 2" scope it might cost a bit less because it doesn't have the pancratic drawtube that varies the magnification - but OTOH is has a leather covering instead of canvas, and a nice blacked finish; that looks in very good condition if original.

It would be difficult to refinish without blacking the maker's engraving as well - it was usual to cut this through the original blacking to give a contrasting finish.

The receipt is all faded. But the amount looks to be £5 or £6 and change.

Everything is original on this and I believe the black finish is original as well. The strap has some marks but otherwise the leather doesn't have any other scuffs.

What does a pancratic drawtube look like?

[MikB]

What does a pancratic drawtube look like?

A short extra drawtube between the smallest main tube and the eyepiece. The smallest main tube will generally have an extra flange on it so that you can draw the scope out without drawing out the pancratic tube. The pancratic tube will also have circumferential lines spaced out along it, usually with different magnifications marked. Typical ranges are 25x - 40x or up to 30x - 60x in the largest.

Here's an example - see the lower left pic:

http://www.scientificcollectables.com/page_enlarge1597b.html

(no advertising intended - I've no connection with this dealer - it just came up as a clear example)

Except in the best-quality scopes, you don't generally find much if any advantage in using the higher mags - they were often a sales gimmick, much like zoom binoculars today.

[codyajax]

A short extra drawtube between the smallest main tube and the eyepiece. The smallest main tube will generally have an extra flange on it so that you can draw the scope out without drawing out the pancratic tube. The pancratic tube will also have circumferential lines spaced out along it, usually with different magnifications marked. Typical ranges are 25x - 40x or up to 30x - 60x in the largest.

Here's an example - see the lower left pic:

http://www.scientificcollectables.com/page_enlarge1597b.html

(no advertising intended - I've no connection with this dealer - it just came up as a clear example)

Except in the best-quality scopes, you don't generally find much if any advantage in using the higher mags - they were often a sales gimmick, much like zoom binoculars today.

Thanks for the information

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Found a telescope with engraving "Sinclair Haymarket London". It should be from around 1915 - 1919.

Few pictures are attached. Any info on this would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

With there being a shortage of optical equipment during WW1, civilian donated and private purchase optical equipment were in military use also, which may or may not be W^D marked.

Regards,

LF

[MikB]

With there being a shortage of optical equipment during WW1, civilian donated and private purchase optical equipment were in military use also, which may or may not be W^D marked.

Regards,

LF

The most acute period of shortage was late 1914 to mid '15. If a civilian instrument officially accepted for military service, the scope would bear a (usually hand-engraved)registration number, S.<n> (where 'S' denoted 'Special' and <n> a number denoting grade), plus the WD arrow. I know the meaning of the 'S' grades for binoculars, but have never found any details for telescopes.

By 1916 - 17 this shortage had been substantially overcome, so a private purchase for either military or civilian use could be represented by the receipt - in the absence of any other evidence.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The most acute period of shortage was late 1914 to mid '15. If a civilian instrument officially accepted for military service, the scope would bear a (usually hand-engraved)registration number, S.<n> (where 'S' denoted 'Special' and <n> a number denoting grade), plus the WD arrow. I know the meaning of the 'S' grades for binoculars, but have never found any details for telescopes.

By 1916 - 17 this shortage had been substantially overcome, so a private purchase for either military or civilian use could be represented by the receipt - in the absence of any other evidence.

The reason I know unmarked optical equipment was used during WW1, was that some 30 years ago, I was fortunate to purchase directly from the man's family in the Manchester area, a travel case belonging to a WW1 Artillery Officer, which contained his named Officer's jacket, cap, Sam Browne equipment, map case, cased binoculars and a leather cased draw-telescope.

Both his cased binoculars and draw-telescope were private purchase, and devoid of any military markings.

I also obtained from the family, several WW1 photographs of the man wearing/carrying the equipment found in his travel case.

Regards,

LF

[MikB]

Hesketh Prichard also comments on deerstalkers like himself, plus the highlanders who became Lovatt Scouts, bringing their own telescopes over to the Western Front. They would be a common private possession amongst families of the officer class of the time. It would probably only be civilians with no military connection in possession of such glasses who'd pass them into the official acceptance channels, where they'd get marked up as described.

[codyajax]

If this would have been used in the war, wouldn't it have wear n tear as well.

Being in the condition it is in, I think this was for personal use.

[MikB]

If this would have been used in the war, wouldn't it have wear n tear as well.

Being in the condition it is in, I think this was for personal use.

Conditions of service varied hugely for all sorts of equipment, as does the condition we find them in today. Your scope - if it was taken on service - appears to've had a quiet war, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that battle-scenes were never viewed through it. Snipers and observers tended to give their instruments care commensurate with their importance.

[Nutting]

I have also just acquired a Sinclair Ltd., Haymarket, telescope, engraved ‘Phillip G. Fry’ whom I assume to be the owner. Optically it is very good.  Scratched date of IV-X-VII inside the eyepiece. It appears to be a lightweight version of the standard Signaller’s scope (there are no military markings).

[Dave66]

There is a temp Lt Phillip G fry, 8th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers…1st feb 1915….https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29150/supplement/4240

Are you sure that’s not a partial broad arrow on its side under Fry?

lovely example.

Dave.

[Nutting]

3 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

There is a temp Lt Phillip G fry, 8th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers…1st feb 1915….https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29150/supplement/4240

Are you sure that’s not a partial broad arrow on its side under Fry?

lovely example.

Dave.

Dave, many thanks for the possible ID of the owner. For some reason I had thought that the mark under ‘Fry’ was just an embellishment by the engraver but, yes, looking carefully it’s almost certainly a partial broad arrow. Thanks for the insight 👍

[Dave66]

I THINK his full name is Phillip Golding Fry…MIC here…https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2444529:1262?_phsrc=Bsg4&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=Phillip+g&gsln=Fry&ml_rpos=2&queryId=83f6a23e87769eaadbc1d6bdea76a62f

Happy to help.

Dave.

[Nutting]

4 hours ago, Dave66 said:

I THINK his full name is Phillip Golding Fry…MIC here…https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2444529:1262?_phsrc=Bsg4&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=Phillip+g&gsln=Fry&ml_rpos=2&queryId=83f6a23e87769eaadbc1d6bdea76a62f

Happy to help.

Dave.

Dave,

Many thanks. Good to hear from you again.

Nigel