Sniders used during WW1

[auchonvillerssomme]

On another forum a member says that weapons, including the Snider were used against sniper plates and goes on to state that...'Large calibre rifles up to the .60 Nitro Express were used as early anti-material rifles to defeat German sniper plates. Although the Germans later upped the thickness of their plates, negating any effect the rifles had on them. So later on the rifles were used for distraction and to provoke German snipers for counter sniper activity.'

I have never seen this stated before and am a bit surprised. I would like to include it in a talk. Does anyone have any references to it?

[Khaki]

I doubt that Snider's would have been of any use, they were after all essentially a conversion system for the older muzzle loading rifled 1853 enfield. A black powder weapon firing a heavy round projectile would not have the velocity necessary to penetrate sniper shields plus leave behind a cloud of smoke.

khaki

[MikB]

I doubt that Snider's would have been of any use, they were after all essentially a conversion system for the older muzzle loading rifled 1853 enfield. A black powder weapon firing a heavy round projectile would not have the velocity necessary to penetrate sniper shields plus leave behind a cloud of smoke.

khaki

I'd agree. The Snider used a hollow-based lead bullet rather light for the calibre in comparison to the nitro-expresses, at much lower shotgun-type velocities. The big nitro expresses used heavier, jacketed bullets of much more robust construction at velocities in the 2000 fps range. I believe one of the rifle-makers put out an advert showing 5/8" tool steel plate pierced by .470 or .475 NE bullets. Snider wouldn't even have dented that, I think.

[T8HANTS]

Steel plates were used as the targets during the Snider era, you marked the target from the splat marks.

No Government made Snider action would take a NE round, there may have been a trade made action strong enough, but the Martini would have made it an obsolete as soon as it was produced.

I think some trade Martinis could handle NE

[MikeyH]

The Snider bullet in addition to being hollow-based, also had a small hollow cavity under the nose. Have seen an example which had been sectioned.

Mike.

[4thGordons]

I'm with everyone else here on this.

I believe there is some discussion in Hesketh-Pritchard of the use of large calibre "big game" rounds against sniper plates but I would need to check for specifics Sniders seem an extremely unlikely candidate to me.

Chris

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thanks Chris.

[4thGordons]

p5 (Ch1 Genesis of Sniping)

"We obtained from the old German trenches a number of large steel plates from behind which the German snipers were wont to shoot, and these I took home with me to England, for I had obtained a week's leave before taking up my new duties.

I proceeded to try on these plate all kinds of rifles, from the Jeffreys high velocity .333 to heavy elephant guns of various bores and was delighted to find the bullets from the .333 pierced them like butter"

he then discusses obtaining funding to get the rifles and then "...As to the heavy and armour piercing rifles, they did their work exceedingly well, and no doubt cause a great surprise to the enemy"

[SiegeGunner]

MikeyH, on 28 Feb 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

The Snider bullet in addition to being hollow-based, also had a small hollow cavity under the nose. Have seen an example which had been sectioned.

In the period before the availability of rifles and ammunition that could pierce a sniper plate, might bullets like the Snider have been used to 'splatter' around the outside of the plate to spall fragments off the inside face and/or project bullet fragments through the aperture? Enough to disrupt and unsettle a sniper.

[MikB]

In the period before the availability of rifles and ammunition that could pierce a sniper plate, might bullets like the Snider have been used to 'splatter' around the outside of the plate to spall fragments off the inside face and/or project bullet fragments through the aperture? Enough to disrupt and unsettle a sniper.

Unless the plate had been case-hardened to the point of embrittlement, I think it's doubtful Snider rounds could've spalled the inside. Plus the accuracy Sniders were capable of really wasn't in the same order as more modern higher-velocity rifles - trying to hit the aperture wouldn't be realistic except at close range. In a duel between a sniper with a Mauser shooting through a plate aperture, and a Tommy with a Snider and a sandbag, I know where my money would be. Tommy might unsettle the sniper, but he might well then settle Tommy for good.

Quite apart from that, there was the logistical fiddle-faddle of getting the Sniders and their ammunition into the supply lines. Officers of HP's class might well have brought over some of their own heavy-game rifles and ammunition from Blighty, but I'd think they'd've known their business too well to have wanted to try Sniders.

[Radlad]

Sniders were issued to colonial troops overseas and prison guards during WW1. Ammunition containing large shot was loaded until about 1927 and ball ammunition discontinued at a much later date. There are several threads on here discussing the subject with some valuable contributions by the late Tony Edwards. I am not aware of them being used as front line weapons in F&F for any reason.

[4thGordons]

For the uninitiated who may have stumbled into this thread and are wondering...

This is a Snider rifle. It was the first breech-loading cartridge rifle to be issued on any scale in the British Army. Initially the rifles (like the one below) were conversions of Pattern 1853 muzzle loaders. These were.577 cal weapons. The conversion used a hinged breech block though which a firing pin passed. The breech was opened, the cartridge was inserted, the breech was closed, the hammer cocked and then, as the trigger was pulled hit the rear end of the pin (positioned where the percussion cap would have been on the original rifle) which was driven forward to strike the primer in the cartridge. It was an effective stop-gap conversion bridging the muzzle loading age to the cartridge rifle age (in British service - ushered in fully by the adoption of the Martini-Henry).

As pointed out - whilst these lingered on in service in colonial forces often as shotguns with simplified fixed sights they were totally obsolete as front line weapons long before the Great War.

Chris

[MikB]

Going back to the original assertion, I'm wondering whether, if .577 NE was amongst the heavy-game rifle calibres used for countersniper plate-punching, the source had assumed all .577 rifles were of similar capability and picked the Snider as the most common example?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I would have thought they would have all been used behind the lines to test the plates, I really cant imagine, with the risks involved they would be used against the real thing.

[AlanD]

Various big game rifles were purchased by the Ministry of Munitions in late 1915, totaling 52 rifles.

Calibres purchased included .600 Nitro, .577 Nitro, .500 Nitro, .475 No2, .470, .450 in various types but not .45 Martini Henry. At least one .416 Rigby appears to have been purchased but was not one of the original 52 rifles that were purchased.

After the War 18 of the 52 rifles were put up for disposal. I don't know what happened to the remaining 34 rifles, damaged, pilfered? Who knows.

So far I have managed to track down 5 or 6 of these original rifles that were purchased by the Min of Munitions by going through gun-makers ledger books for the period concerned. This is an on-going project.

The .577 Snider would have been completely ineffective and would not have been considered.

Regards

AlanD

Sydney