KIA OR DOW?

[mcfc1923]

Thanks to the information that came with the BWM i bought and the good folk on the forum, i thought i knew a fair deal about my man who died on the first day on the Somme. The other day i contacted the museum of manchester regiment,

with regards to a book on the 21st battalion and ended up asking about the soldier

whose medal i have and his regiment.

The gentleman got back to me and said it was his guess(going on the information that i gave him) if he is buried in carnoy military cemetary which was used by field ambulances during the battle, then it was his best guess that he was wounded

during the attack and carried back by a stretcher bearer and died at the field ambulance.

I always assumed he was kia, like the gentleman said it's just a guess, but it's an interesting guess all the same, bit i'm not sure wher to look to find out the answear.

was he kia or did he die of wounds later that day?

The gentleman i contacted was a David Hopkins, he deserves a mention he was first class.

cheers pals

jim

[hmsk212]

Hi Jim

You need a look up done using Soldiers Died in the Great War.

Steve

[mcfc1923]

Hi Jim

You need a look up done using Soldiers Died in the Great War.

Steve

Hi Steve, David Hopkins has just got back to me, he checked the sdgw and it

confirmed he was kia, at first he just went off from what it said on cwgc which said

died on----

cheers Steve

jim

[SPotter]

Jim,

This is a subject open very much to debate and interpretation. SDGW lists casualties under the three main headings of Killed in Action, Died of Wounds and Died. Despite these titles being fairly self-explanatory there is plenty of scope for doubt as to when KIA becomes DoW. Just how far down the line did the casualty have to travel, or what level of treatment did he have to receive, or indeed how long did he have to survive before he was considered to have died of wounds received rather than killed (other than instantaneously).

The IWGC (as then was) were supplied details of casualties by the Army Authorities, so I have often wondered why they list all casualties as simply 'died'.

To quote a example of how confued this can be, I have a single victory medal to a casualty of the First Day of the Somme - in a manner of speaking.

7131 L/Cpl Charles Samuel ADLAM, 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regiment is listed by SDGW as Died of Wounds on 1st July 1916. CWGC shows 'died' on 3rd July 1916, but unlike many of his Regiment who also fell that day who are listed on the Thiepval Memorial, he is buried in Puchevillers British Cemetery. So we have a conflict on dates and only a single source of cause of death. An educated guess could be made based on the knowledge that Puchevillers Cemetery was started by the 3rd and 44th Casualty Clearing Stations in June 1916, presumably in preparation for the 'Big Push'. So if he got as far as a casualty clearing station he almost certainly would have been considered to have died of wounds; whether the correct date was the 1st or 3rd could not be determined. Fortunately his papers survived (just - being part of the very burnt series) and reveal the truth; that is he was indeed a casualty of the First Day of the Somme, BUT only wounded. He was evacuated behind the lines but died of his wounds on the 3rd July.

Just thought this may be of interest.

Steve

[John_Hartley]

Jim

David Hopkins, the Museum's curator, is one the good guys.

I know him reasonably well as we both members of Lancs & Cheshire Branch WFA. He always listens very carefully to me moaning about the lack of war diaries in the museum archives (in comparison with most other museums) and he then ignores, equally carefully, my suggestions for improvement.

He's been known, on more than one occasion, to point enquirers in the direction of this Forum.

John

[mcfc1923]

SPotter, totally agree. I hope it does not sound as if i'm making light of the subject, but i suppose the only solid interpretation of kia would be the stretcher bearer bringing in a dead body or even more grusome a body part, and of course ther must have been some poor souls who left behind nothing more than a dogtag or photo.

It can certainly be a red herring at theCWGC when you read DIED as oppose to kia. and then of course you have the conflict with dates as happened with your man.

I don't know what the procedure was when a soldier who was obviously going to die was brought in from the battlefield, would it have been just ''nowt we can do for him'', and then fill in the form saying died, regardless of whether he was already dead? i'm sure it was not done as callously as i have suggested but they must have been under extreme pressure to deal with so many casualties.

cheers steve, plenty of food for thought.

jim

[Terry Denham]

The IWGC (as then was) were supplied details of casualties by the Army Authorities, so I have often wondered why they list all casualties as simply 'died'.

Steve

They don't.

Or rather they do on the simplified website copy database but not in the real thing.

In the main database for WW1 (not WW2) they list 'cause of death' as supplied by the n-o-k (KiA, DoW, accident, specific illness etc - or nothing if it was not stated). The army authorities did not supply them with a cause of death but the admiralty did supply slightly more detail ('ship torpedoed' etc) which also appears.

About 20% of WW1 entries have such information but it is not always reliable having been supplied by the n-o-k.

This info appears in the old registers and in any printout ordered from CWGC.

[mcfc1923]

Jim

David Hopkins, the Museum's curator, is one the good guys.

I know him reasonably well as we both members of Lancs & Cheshire Branch WFA. He always listens very carefully to me moaning about the lack of war diaries in the museum archives (in comparison with most other museums) and he then ignores, equally carefully, my suggestions for improvement.

He's been known, on more than one occasion, to point enquirers in the direction of this Forum.

John

John, so it appears you have friends in many high places.

David was great, loads of info and fact sheet etc, although he did throw me slightly with his dow.

So what's the reason for the lack of war diaries in the archives?, I would have thought the Manchesters would have had shelf fulls of them.

Interested to know your suggestions to him for improvments, and which ones he

carefully ignores

jim

[John_Hartley]

Jim

My kindly and helpful suggestions have been to the effect that the Museum should spend a comparitively few thousand and buy a complete set of copy war diaries for the Regiment, from the National Archives. This would enable local people to go and do some proper research without a 200+mile schlep down to Kew. I've suggested that there could even be a Lottery Heritage Fund bid if Tameside Council can't cough up what I estimate to be about £5000.

My kindly and helpful suggestions are, so far, ignored.

Including the one where I said David could even borrow my copy of the 17th's Diary to copy for themselves (which would be dirt cheap). To the best of my knowledge they only have a copy of the 1st Battalion's Diary.

Frankly, it's poor. Particularly when I compare the ease with which I am researching at the Cheshires' Museum which has a full set. Saving me a fortune in travel/hotels/etc.

I can get very "direct" on this subject. This is the restrained version.

John

[SPotter]

Terry,

Many thanks for the correction - I wasn't aware of that. I find it strange that the cause of death should have come from the relatives - this may have been a very emotional subject for them. Indeed some reports may well have been unintentionally incorrect - I can imagine there must have been many instances of the "he died instantly" or "he never felt a thing" accounts as written by considerate CO's or mates rather than the perhaps more gruesome truth. It would seem that knowing where a man is buried and a history of that location may be more indicative than anything else ~ front line cemetery vs behind the lines CCS etc.

Just as a matter of interest, why wasn't the 'real' cause of death given on the online version? I can appreciate that if each entry had to be made individually it would have added to the workload. Presumably the 'died' is just a standard text, but am a little disappointed to think that this information is available but just not online. I wonder what differences a comparison between SDGW and CWGC would bring. No doubt more inconsistancies we could do without.

Regards,

Steve

[Terry Denham]

Steve

The information is not online (yet) because of the reasons you partly state.

The cause of death was never supplied to CWGC by the many authorities who gave them the info. Only very basic details were supplied - sufficient only to identify each individual. That was all that was deemed necessary to meet CWGC's remit of recording each man's name. Many names did not even have their full first names supplied - only initials. Name, rank, number, unit, date of death was sufficient. (It seems that the Admiralty sometimes did include bare details of ship losses - eg 'Died when ship torpedoed by submarine')

The nok did sometimes supply extra info voluntarily on their Final Verification Forms for WW1 and this was duly recorded. There is no guarantee that such info is correct.

The vast majority of CWGC's 1.7 million names have no such details included (no entries at all for WW2 include it) as the nok said nothing on the subject. As I said above, only a very small percentage of those for WW1 have any such details.

You have to remember that CWGC is not supplying this information for researchers. It is being supplied so that relatives can find the place of commemoration of their loved ones.

Having said that, the information (such as it is) may appear when the Commission's new database system is up and running. Meanwhile, you can obtain it by checking a copy of the original registers (no longer published) or ordering a printout from CWGC.

I am happy to check any reasonable number of names for you but you have to be prepared for the majority of answers to be 'nothing' rather than 'died of appendicitis' etc. Obviously, names on a memorial to the missing rarely have any such details (except for naval memorials).

[mcfc1923]

Jim

My kindly and helpful suggestions have been to the effect that the Museum should spend a comparitively few thousand and buy a complete set of copy war diaries for the Regiment, from the National Archives. This would enable local people to go and do some proper research without a 200+mile schlep down to Kew. I've suggested that there could even be a Lottery Heritage Fund bid if Tameside Council can't cough up what I estimate to be about £5000.

My kindly and helpful suggestions are, so far, ignored.

Including the one where I said David could even borrow my copy of the 17th's Diary to copy for themselves (which would be dirt cheap). To the best of my knowledge they only have a copy of the 1st Battalion's Diary.

Frankly, it's poor. Particularly when I compare the ease with which I am researching at the Cheshires' Museum which has a full set. Saving me a fortune in travel/hotels/etc.

I can get very "direct" on this subject. This is the restrained version.

John

John, did he not give any explanation or excuse as to why they won't take up your offer?.

What ammount of money are we talking about just to make a copy?

jim

[CROONAERT]

He's been known, on more than one occasion, to point enquirers in the direction of this Forum.

Mmm! Yeah, I know! He mentioned to me that a guy on this forum could probably help me out with a detailed map of the area and at the time that "my" 11th Bn man served and was killed. Apparently, he's got quite a large collection of trench and other maps.

Any idea who that guy could be?

Dave.

(I agree, he's one of the "good guys", but I suspect his hands are tied!)

[John_Hartley]

Jim (and Dave)

I'm sure his hands are tied on this. It's possibly because the museum/archives are local council owned rather than by trustees.

When I said a cost of about £5000, I was working on the basis of what the National Archives charge for photcopies(they will not discount, even for another public sector organisation). I have a full copy of the 17/Mancs diary (including all the commander's battle reports, movement orders, etc. It cost me round about £200.

There were around about 24 battalions saw overseas service. So £200 X 24 = £4800. Personally I think that would be a great investment for the museum and would allow them to develop local research facilities and a local enquiry service (free or chargeable) - perhaps operated by volunteers (like the Chehsires Museum).

That said, David did tell me that he is thinking of buying a copy of the Medal Roll. So it's not all bad.

And, hey, I know a member of this Forum who seems to have a really good set of trench maps and other stuff.

[mcfc1923]

John,

council owned? that's a non starter then, when it comes to the council ther a law unto themselves, and don't imagine much would come of asking the lottery, they will be far to busy giving out grants to far more deserving causes, like mexican pygmies who suffer from acute flatulance.

It really is a sad situation, they have the opportunity to put themselves on the map,so to speak, with publicity, local papers etc.

At least David is Thinking of buying a copy of the medal roll, i'm glad someone is thinking down ther, still it's a start i suppose.

And, Hey, I also know a member of the forum who seems to have a really good set of trench maps and stuff, and if he sold only 2 of his maps he could afford to buy the museum problem solved.

jim

[John_Hartley]

Jim

Getting back to your original question.......

......based on advice I received on this Forum (probably when membership was still in three figures), I've always worked to a rule of thumb that if a guy got at least to his Regimental Aid Post and was seen by the MO, then he'd probably be recorded as died of wounds. Anything before that was a KIA.

Rule of thumb only and take with pinch of salt. As Steve suggests earlier, link it to where the guy is buried. Put all the bits together in your mind, make a leap of faith, come to a decision and stick with it.

John

[mcfc1923]

sound advice John.

cheers

jim

[Sparky53]

Is there any chance you can look up my Great Uncle

Name-Thomas Ridge

Rank-Pte

Number-21507

Regt-2nd Northamptonshire Regt

Born-Longton, Staffs

Enlisted-Longton, Staffs

Residing-NO ENTRY

Died date-1/6/16

Died How-Died of Wounds

Theatre-France & Flanders

Other notes-Formerly 18636 Royal Fusiliers.

He is buried at Barlin Communal Cemetary Extension which I believe was adjacent a Field Hospital of some kind.

Also my Grandfather's Cousin

2nd Lt Archibald Charles Spark, Gordon Highlanders Long No 157206

Commissioned as 2nd Lieut. in the 3 Bn, Gordon Highlanders in March 1917

Joined the 10th Bn three weeks later

Killed at the opening of the Battle of Ypres on 31 July 1917 "while carrying on through smoke and darkness

The CWG site says he was 8th Battalion

WO 363 2205 says DEAD!

He is buried at the White House Cemetary

[John_Hartley]

Sparky53

I'm not sure what sort of look-up you are askiing for here, or how we can help. Neither of the men you mention appear to have a connection with 17/Manchesters.

John