Khaki Posted 18 February , 2016 Share Posted 18 February , 2016 Winchester Model 12 pump action shotgun in 12 gauge, a popular weapon as a trench gun and in its riot gun configuration as shown here. tube magazine holds five shells usually in 00 Buckshot. Frequently used to escort & guard POW's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2016 Notice the difference to the 1897 Winchester pump, hammerless model but still capable of being 'slam fired'. A lot of firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2016 Winchester 1897 for comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 18 February , 2016 Share Posted 18 February , 2016 khaki, 2 great shotguns, delivering a lot of firepower with deadly force at close range when clearing trenches, and I particularly liked that a bayonet could also be fitted. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 18 February , 2016 Share Posted 18 February , 2016 American servicemen undergoing shotgun training. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2016 Hello LF, That's true but the other big plus is the hand guard, and anyone familiar with the rapid firing of a shotgun will agree that the barrel heats up very fast and can cause a severe burn. Generally the riot type would be only required to fire a few rounds whereas the trench gun may need the entire magazine plus. khaki great photo, by the way, 97' riot guns by the look of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2016 All brass 12 gauge shell designed to replace the paper & brass shells that became swollen in the damp condition of the trenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 18 February , 2016 Share Posted 18 February , 2016 (edited) Khaki, Forgive my ignorance, but I know that paper and modern, plastic, rounds are crimped over to stop the shot, charge and wad falling out, but how did that happen with the above brass round please? Just curious. Trev Edited 18 February , 2016 by Trev2386 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2016 As far as I know, and I am not a cartridge guy,, I have seen brass shells with the wad held in place by a shallow roll crimp. Whether or not all the military ones were the same I am not sure. Hopefully some of our cartridge people can add some more information. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 19 February , 2016 Share Posted 19 February , 2016 Forgive my ignorance, but I know that paper and modern, plastic, rounds are crimped over to stop the shot, charge and wad falling out, but how did that happen with the above brass round please? Trev, The WW1 12g brass shotgun shell's contents were held inside the shell case by a stiff card disc placed under the lip of the shell case ( see attached ). Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 19 February , 2016 Share Posted 19 February , 2016 LF, Thanks for clearing that up. I would have thought that reloads would have been nigh on impossible due to damage to the rim on firing caused by the shot exiting the round. Having said that, reloads were probably out of the question on the battlefield. Modern day owners might suffer though. Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 19 February , 2016 Share Posted 19 February , 2016 Please forgive a simple question from someone whose only knowledge of Winchesters was gleaned from western films. What is 'slam firing' Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 19 February , 2016 Share Posted 19 February , 2016 I believe it's where you squeeze the trigger, hold it and pump the action. This causes each round to fire as you pump. I think!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2016 That's essentially how it works, but is not a safe or recommended practice, what happens in combat where 'rules' are sometimes abandoned is another matter. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 19 February , 2016 Share Posted 19 February , 2016 Trev and Khaki, Many thanks Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Slam Firing one of these shotguns meant could empty 6 rounds (5 in magazine 1 in chamber) in under 3 seconds This put 54 projectiles (6 x 9 buckshot pellets) downrange . Rule of thumb for shot spread was 1 inch of dispersion for every yard of distance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 I would imagine that in the confines of a four to six foot wide trench that the effect would be devastating. I have users a Browning auto "in anger", but not in a confined space and the psychological effect is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 I would imagine that in the confines of a four to six foot wide trench that the effect would be devastating. Particularly for several of the enemy in close proximity to each other. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener's Bugle Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Devastating,..... Imagine being on the end of that. ! And of course Very well made to a high quality production standard. Is that from your own collection Khaki? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ring Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 I am a keen duck shooter and own both pump action and semi auto 12 gauge shotguns. Apart from using the standard steel shot duck loads after lead was banned down here I have also fired buckshot loads at wild pigs. Believe me you would not want to be on the receiving end in a confined trench. I agree with Trev2386.. Devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 20 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Devastating,..... Imagine being on the end of that. ! And of course Very well made to a high quality production standard. Is that from your own collection Khaki? Yes both the 97 and model 12 are mine khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reese williams Posted 24 February , 2016 Share Posted 24 February , 2016 My model 12 trench gun was arsenal reworked/refinished during WWII. As Khaki says firing either of these from an open bolt is not recommended, it's something that is very hard to resist doing, at least once, if you own one of these. The results are eye-opening. It's no wonder the Marines referred to them as "trench brooms". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Mc Posted 24 February , 2016 Share Posted 24 February , 2016 Are the Remington brass cases pictured compatible with a Winchester 97 does anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 24 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2016 That's a good question, considering that both shotguns remained in US military inventory for years, I would say probably. I use purpose made snap cap shells for cycling through my shotgun actions (it prevents damage through dry firing & accidental discharge), the snap cap shells cycle through both guns ok. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 February , 2016 Share Posted 24 February , 2016 Are the Remington brass cases pictured compatible with a Winchester 97 does anyone know? Peter, The 12 gauge shotgun shells shown in post #10, should be compatible with any 12 gauge shotgun. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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