JMB1943 Posted 1 February , 2016 Share Posted 1 February , 2016 Did the Great War see the first military use of the 'scope-mounted rifle ? If so, can I presume it was introduced by Germany ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 1 February , 2016 Share Posted 1 February , 2016 Scope mounted hunting rifles were the first used, and I would not be shocked to see them in the Boar war. I believe the ACW had them also. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AndyBrockman Posted 1 February , 2016 Share Posted 1 February , 2016 Rod is right.A bit of googling around suggests the earliest recognisably modern scope designed to be fitted to a rifle was made by a British engineer called John Chapman who based the idea on sights used for survey instruments. His work was c 1840 and was turned into a practical sight by gunmaker Morgan James of Utica, New York. The work was described in Chapman's book "The Improved American Rifle" in 1844. By the American Civil War Sharpshooters as they were then called, were taking target/hunting rifles out into the field and using them in a skirmish/sniper type role.By the Civil War two other makers were supplying scopes, William Malcolm of Syracuse, NY and L. M. Amidon of Vermont. The cost of a scope at this period was around $20. Scopes at this time were long, almost the length of the rifle barrel and could be between 3x and 20 x magnification, and a good shot with a decent scope and rifle could claim a tight ten shot group at over 200 yds.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 February , 2016 Share Posted 1 February , 2016 Regarding WW1, I can only quote German practice - and at from Storz's Rifle and Carbine 98, 244-263.. Officers of the Bavarian Cavalry division are reported on 29th November 1914 as using a telescopic sight ("made available by Fuerst Alois Loewenstein"(!)) fitted to a carbine with "unquestionable success" when dealing with enemy (unspecified) snipers. The I Bavarian Army Corps were evidently experimenting also as is indicated by a report of of 3 December 1914, which talks of the difficulties of fitting telescopic sights to the 'M 98 rifle' - so presumably the Gew.98, not the Kar.98. Prussia began an appeal for hunting rifles with 'scopes in early 1915, and supplies of 'scopes and rifles with the necessary fittings and adaptations for these (the foresight and bolt get in the way!) began in April 1915. By 1918, rifles with 'scopes were supposed to be issued (in Prussia) on the basis of 3-4 per infantry company. Trajan PS: Ogilwy, I'll reply to that PM a weeks or so back soonish - but having a beer for you now on the news! EDIT: And I'll combine the reply to the first with the one that you have just sent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dman Posted 2 February , 2016 Share Posted 2 February , 2016 Civil War Whitworth rifle with scope http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8H0HwE80HvY/US-Qv97YG-I/AAAAAAAABFA/6ZCu_aQOC74/s1600/Whitworth+-+Scoped+2.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 2 February , 2016 Share Posted 2 February , 2016 dman Great screen saver. I can get rid of the retriever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 3 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2016 So, it looks like the US Civil War has the first military use----also first trenches & aerial observation I seem to remember. Thanks for the info. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 16 February , 2016 Share Posted 16 February , 2016 The American civil war also had a little more than 20 breeching-loading 1.5" rifled cannon, known as the Ellsworth gun. This b-l action and gun was invented by an American congressman in the late 1850's to be used in Kansas Territory by anti-slavery settlers against pro-slavery "Border Ruffians". At the start of the US CW the inventor, Eli Thayer, convinced President Lincoln to purchase 20 of them. The army was not interested in them and they were shelved until captured by the Confederates in 9/1862. They were two small to be of any great use. However the point of this long-winded post is that they were quite accurate, AND they were provided with telescopic sites! I have restored one of the original guns and can provide a photo of same with a repro long range brass sight. New 3.2 Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2016 Ken, Definitely need a photo ! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 February , 2016 Share Posted 16 February , 2016 Did the Great War see the first military use of the 'scope-mounted rifle ? If so, can I presume it was introduced by Germany ? Regards, JMB JMB, The Americans were using rifles fitted with telescopes as early as the Civil War, here is a Civil War period trade advertisement for such a ' scoped ' rifle. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2016 Hello Lancs, Very nice ! Zooming in on the photo is interesting; the range was 35 rods (175 meters)/barrel diameter 2.5 in./ rifle weight 32 lb; wt. of shot ~0.4 oz. If the illustration is to be believed, the shooter looked to have had a tight grouping at the center of the bull's eye. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 16 February , 2016 Share Posted 16 February , 2016 By the American Civil War Sharpshooters as they were then called, were taking target/hunting rifles out into the field and using them in a skirmish/sniper type role. I was led to believe that the term Sharpshooter was derived from the users of the Sharps carbine as it was a notoriously accurate weapon, the term taking over from marksman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 16 February , 2016 Share Posted 16 February , 2016 Zooming in on the photo is interesting; the range was 35 rods (175 meters)/barrel diameter 2.5 in./ rifle weight 32 lb; wt. of shot ~0.4 oz. JMB, I had not realized looking at the advertisement, that the term ' Rod ' also known as a ' Perch ' or ' Pole ' dates all the way back to King Henry VIII as a British measurement, which obviously later found it's way to America also. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 16 February , 2016 Well, I did remember rods, poles & perches from elementary school on the back of our exercise books---but never did know what the distance was. Looking at the illustration again, is that actually a 'rifle' rather than a smooth-bore muzzle-loader ? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 Hello JMB- It is indeed a rifle. Did you notice in the bottom of the picture the false muzzle shown in front of the rifle. They exist as a ball starter to allow the patch and ball to loaded to the satisfaction of the shooter before the false muzzle is fastened on the rifle barrel by those several pins. After seating the ball, the false muzzle is removed before the rifle is fired. I am using Chris to help me post the photos of the Ellsworth cannon. regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 When the Germans developed the "light" MG 08/15, and these were positioned in the front line trench, the old heavy tripod-mounted MG 08s were generally moved to MG nests behind the first trench lines, generally trained to fire diagonally across the first trench line, providing very effective flanking fire. As this increased ranges, the MGs were equipped with telescopic sights, and additionally each MG team was issued about three pair of binoculars, probably 8 x 24s or 7x24s. Additionally, at this time several special units of three companies each were formed called "machine gun sharpshooter battalions". This is the first use of telescopic sights on machine guns that I had heard of. Moving the MGs to behind the first line of trenches protected them from being quickly overrun, allowed very effective flanking fire to either side, while the MG 08/15s provided fire to the front, and also allowed the heavy MGs to provide effective defensive fire during an enemy barrage, which usually was dropped on the first trench line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 Hello JMB- It is indeed a rifle. Did you notice in the bottom of the picture the false muzzle shown in front of the rifle. They exist as a ball starter to allow the patch and ball to loaded to the satisfaction of the shooter before the false muzzle is fastened on the rifle barrel by those several pins. After seating the ball, the false muzzle is removed before the rifle is fired. I am using Chris to help me post the photos of the Ellsworth cannon. regards, Ken Here are Ken's pics three views of an 1861 1.5" Ellsworth cannon concentrating on the open breech and long range sight (reproduction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 I may be wrong, but I am sure that I have seen the tern sharpshooter used in relation to expert shots in the Napoleonic War. Happy to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 The American civil war also had a little more than 20 breeching-loading 1.5" rifled cannon, known as the Ellsworth gun. This b-l action and gun was invented by an American congressman in the late 1850's to be used in Kansas Territory by anti-slavery settlers against pro-slavery "Border Ruffians". At the start of the US CW the inventor, Eli Thayer, convinced President Lincoln to purchase 20 of them. The army was not interested in them and they were shelved until captured by the Confederates in 9/1862. They were two small to be of any great use. However the point of this long-winded post is that they were quite accurate, AND they were provided with telescopic sites! I have restored one of the original guns and can provide a photo of same with a repro long range brass sight. New 3.2 Ken Ken, A superb restoration job, on an interesting gun. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 17 February , 2016 Share Posted 17 February , 2016 Thanks for the compliment LF. It also is one of the guns our cannon group uses for the 1812 Overture with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. Really a fun time. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Thanks to Michael H, in the German optics thread he has identified my two zeiss scopes as the pattern used for snipers in early WWI. Due to the demand for scopes in the trenches early Carl Zeiss telescopes (for hunting) were introduced. Reasonably rare with an example coming up for sale from a US dealers. If there are any sniper equipment collectors out there please contact me as I would be keen to know more about these items. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 20 February , 2016 Share Posted 20 February , 2016 Thanks to Michael H, in the German optics thread he has identified my two zeiss scopes as the pattern used for snipers in early WWI. Due to the demand for scopes in the trenches early Carl Zeiss telescopes (for hunting) were introduced. Reasonably rare with an example coming up for sale from a US dealers. If there are any sniper equipment collectors out there please contact me as I would be keen to know more about these items. Mark Mark, I think I had better just mention that, as I wrote in the other thread, I know next to nothing about these scopes. The caption to the photo I provided states the use of the scopes remains obscure and I can't add anything to that and I certainly can't identify your scopes as a pattern used by snipers in early WWI. Having read a little further what I can add is that, although the German authorities acquired sporting arms and used some for sniping they decided to limit that use to weapons using "Mauser-systems" firing either the Patrone-88 or S-Patrone cartridge. Again, as I wrote earlier, I can't identify the type of rifle(s) to which your scopes were attached. What I can say is that they don't appear to me to have the type of mount used for Mauser rifles and you will need an expert to identify the type of rifle the scopes were mounted on. However, if they were not mounted on Mauser rifles it appears to me it is highly unlikely they were used for sniping. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 21 February , 2016 Share Posted 21 February , 2016 All good. In the Armourer magazine (attempting to pin down the edition) there is an article on WWI sniping showing a captured snipers rifle in the hand of a Brit, and the scope is one of these. I have also been informed that these scopes were also trialled by the US Army in 1903 on Ross rifles....so the plot thickens!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Posted 22 February , 2016 Share Posted 22 February , 2016 Thanks for the compliment LF. It also is one of the guns our cannon group uses for the 1812 Overture with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. Really a fun time. Ken Presumably the telescopic sights then come in useful for pinpointing the chap in the stalls answering his phone? You'd only need to make an example of one or two to get full audience attention? DJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 22 February , 2016 Share Posted 22 February , 2016 I may be wrong, but I am sure that I have seen the tern sharpshooter used in relation to expert shots in the Napoleonic War. Happy to be corrected. are these not the rifle brigade who used to go ahead and sharp shoot ? they never had scopes mind but with the accuracy of the baker rifle they never needed one Biffo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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