2nd Lt F Hall RFC,Dorsets 18 Sqdn dow Sep 1916

[charlie962]

I was reading a SiegeBattery War Diary for Sept 1916 and noted the following (There are entries on normal gunnery each day before and after)

Near Maricourt Sep 24th In OP with Lt Bickard. Desolutory shelling of locality by enemy. One of our aeroplanes came down close to OP.

Picked up 2nd Lt F Hall RFC (Dorset Regt) from it - dying- carried to aid post. Made a report on his gallant conduct

saving his machine and observer, who was unhurt.

.I was interested to see if this 'report' found its way to the family.

Looking at CWGC I could identify 2nd Lt Fred Hall RFC/Dorsets DoW 22 Sept 1916. Buried Guillemont Rd Mil Cmty. Son of Mr Mrs T Davison Hall of North Shields (2,Fernwood Rd, Jesmond, Newcastle on Tyne) I note that the others burried with him, before concentration , are died 25 Sep.

A search on the excellent site airhistory.org.uk gave me details of Casualty Cards etc. The RAF Museum Storyvault gave me the additional Roll details.

From this I see that the RAF record is consistantly as follows:

The events are with 18 squadron. perhaps their diary clarifies?

How come there is such a difference in date and story? Any thoughts? I know there is always the fog of war but not very active on those two days. Would the Artillery officers ( the CO and the FOO) on the spot have misunderstood to the extent of submitting an incorrect recommendation?

[nieuport11]

There is also a Casualty Report, also dated the 22nd, submitted by 18Sq, and a Casualty Book record on the same day.

The Routine Orders for 14 Wing show the same date

The weekly return for 18Sq for the w/e 30.9.16 probably gives a clue though.

The entry for 4937 says 'shot down 22.9.16 engine not yet salved'

There is no record of the airframe going to the Aircraft Depot.

So possibly the salvage took several days and the Diary was written up after the event

[Loader]

Can't explain the date question. But it's interesting they did not mention the name of the Observer. He must've been right there when they rescued the wounded pilot & himself as well. I'ms sure the Obs would have gone with his pilot to the medial station to be checked out too. Possible date mix up as stated, diary written up few days later. If they did not get the Obs name they could have the date mixed up too.

[charlie962]

I couldn't find anything more on Lt BF Randall, the observer.

Given that the RGA officer submitted a report about the incident it would suprise me if he got the date and details wrong. He would, I am presuming, have spoken to the observer as well as having witnessed the incident? Where would the report have ended up ?

In an FE2b, I see pilot and observer are in tandem.Are there simple dual controls to let an observer land safely in just such an incident ?

[fetubi]

I couldn't find anything more on Lt BF Randall, the observer.

Given that the RGA officer submitted a report about the incident it would suprise me if he got the date and details wrong. He would, I am presuming, have spoken to the observer as well as having witnessed the incident? Where would the report have ended up ?

In an FE2b, I see pilot and observer are in tandem.Are there simple dual controls to let an observer land safely in just such an incident ?

Hi Charlie,

They're not really "in tandem" - more that the pilot and observer sit in front of the engine, with the prop out the back, and the observer sits in what is known as a nacelle, in front of and slightly below the level of the pilot. Think of the nacelle like an open bath tub, with a machine gun stuck on a pole mounted in the plug hole, and a few thousand feet of drop where the taps should be!

There are a few instances of FE2b/d observers landing their aircraft, when the pilot had been wounded, shot or killed. But this involved climbing back up out of his nacelle and then effectively sitting in the lap of his unconscious or dead pilot, in order to work the controls (which most FE2b pilots seemed to coach their observers about, for just such an eventuality...)

My icon is a drawing of an FE2b.

Trevor

[charlie962]

Thank you Trevor, I have seen some photos of cockpit layout now.

So it is possible but extremely difficult and I presume the Observer would need some experience and agility. I'm sure the adrenelin was flowing. Since I cannot trace the observer I don't know any more.

Just thinking its a bit tough that the pilot never got any sort of recognition, nor presumably his family?, or so it seems. Of course I don't know what letters were sent to NoK.

Charlie

[Guest]

Fred Hall was my Great Uncle. 

I know very little of his life, save that it was short. 

He and his brother Davison Hall, my grandfather, attended Ley's School in Cambridge (as did my father).

Fred is remembered on the school memorial mounted on the external east wall of the school chapel.

The information provided above was not known to the family and on their behalf I thank-you very much. 

Pre-war photo of Fred. 

Edited 10 November , 2017 by Guest
Adding a thank-you!

[josquin]

 

Some more on the intrepid observer:  Lt. Basil Fitz Herbert Randall was born in 1890 (late in the year) at Bournemouth, Hampshire,

was an undergraduate student at Oxford at the time of the 1911 Census, and was a Lieutenant with 3rd Skinner's Horse (a cavalry

regiment of the British Indian Army that served on the Western Front from 1914 to 1916) prior to serving with the Royal Flying Corps.

He probably survived the war, as he is not listed on the RAF Museum's casualty cards nor at Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Regards,

Josquin

[Matthew B.]

Just an addendum to what Josquin wrote, after serving with the RFC, according my research, Basil re-joined his regiment in early 1917, thought was attached to the 40th Cavalry during the 3rd Afghan War of 1919. He continued to serve in the Indian Army after the 1922 reforms with the Skinner's Horse (the post 1922 amalgamation of 1st and 3rd Skinners Horse, rising to the rank of Major in October 1928. Sadly he died in India of the injuries he received in a polo accident on 4 February 1930. He had married in October 1922 in India to Rena May Heslop and had two children.

 

Matthew

[randall1968]

I'd like to add a very belated addition to this thread which my brother stumbled upon just the other day. Basil Randall was my grandfather who, as noted above, died in India in 1930. I want to thank you all very much for the information you have shared -- we know almost nothing about his life and were astonished to read about his exploits in 1916. Could you suggest any other sources that might provide further insights into his military career? We'd very much like to find out more. In the meantime, I attach a photo of Basil as a full lieutenant, taken, presumably, in the latter half of the War. 

Many thanks in advance
Michael

[Matthew B.]

Hello Michael,

Basil did not take the usual route to get a regular army commission, having gone to university rather than the Royal Military College, Sandhurst. I suspect he must have been a member of the Officer Training Corps at university.

London Gazette 9 July 1912
UNATTACHED LIST FOR THE TERRITORIAL FORCE. Basil FitzHerbert Randall to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 9th July, 1912

London Gazette 17 January 1913
UNATTACHED LIST FOR INDIAN ARMY.
The undermentioned Second Lieutenants from Unattached List, Territorial Force, with a view to their appointment to the Indian Army. 
Dated 5th September, 1911, with precedence next below A. S. Mackay, but not to carry pay or allowances prior to 18th January, 1913:—
Basil FitzHerbert Randall

London Gazette 14 July 1914
The KING has approved of the admission of the undermentioned Officers to the Indian Army : —
Second Lieutenants to be Second Lieutenants with promotion to Lieutenant from the dates specified.
FROM THE UNATTACHED LIST.
Basil FitzHerbert Randall, 3rd Skinner's Horse. Dated 9th March, 1914, with rank as Lieutenant from 5th December, 1913
 

I hope that is of interest.

Kind regards,

Matthew