Battlefield debris or natural minerals?

[Guest webbhead]

Hoping someone can solve a bit of a geological mystery for me.

When I recently toured the old battlefields around the Somme region in France, I kept coming across strange formations of mineral/ stone/ molten something-or-other (??). These stone-like objects are often broken open and remind me of jade. Are these natural deposits, or are they some sort of molten debris from fire/ materiel/ destruction during the Somme battles? Are they detritus from artillery guns?? Metal, stone, mineral??? Any help would be appreciated to satisfy my curiosity.

Cheers.

[pgardiner1418]

Dear Webhead,

If they are what I am thinking of then they are Flint nodules and are quite common in chalk areas,

All the best,

Paul

[Guest webbhead]

Thanks Paul. Lets see what others think.

Cheers.

[Aurel Sercu]

Actually, when reading the topic for the first time I thought of flint stones the walls of Tyne Cot Cemetery are made of. (Though these stones must be a lot larger I suppose.)

No photos ?

Aurel

[Simon R]

I'm sorry but we need more information to identify this - it could just be clinker.

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi,

yes, I think they are flint as well. I took a bunch of flintstones with me from the Somme battlefields last year, to practice flintknapping at home. ( I studied archaeology, and making flint tools yourself is really the best way of understanding how people did it thousands of years ago). The fact that they appear broken can be a combination of artillery damage, but more likely recent deep ploughing I would say.

best,

Bert

[Guest webbhead]

Thanks for the responses. I'm feeling pretty convinced they are natural deposits--flint as two of you say. Pretty plausible explanation.

Cheers.

[Simon R]

If it looks like jade then it won't be flint. If it's green like jade then it isn't flint. If it has a conchoidal fracture, glassy lustre and is razor sharp then it's flint. If it is white on the outside and dark brown, grey or black inside then you've got a flint nodule. The white is a patinated surface which results from chemical interactions in the soil.

I find a green, glassy, almost molten-looking deposits on sites in my area and it is NOT flint - it is the solidified remains from the bottom of a furnance, it's clinker.

[Aurel Sercu]

I have hesitated quite a while (2 years and 4 months) to post this on the Forum, since it is not at all related to the Great War. (Except that the item it is about coincidentally was found some 50 yards from ... the Thiepval Memorial.)

I also hesitate to post my question in this specific thread (if only it had been in the Utterly off topic section ...), but as this thread about flint modules offers such a splendid opportunity I cannot resist.

- A flint module picked up during a visit to the Memorial, among the threes on the right side. (No digging was involved !)

- Dimensions : longest (from the top surface to the sharper end : 9 cm (3.6 inches) ; diameter of the convex surface : 7.5 cm (3 inches)

- Weight : 350 grammes

- Most striking feature : the item more or less invites you to hold it in your hand in a very specific way, using it as a kind of tool (e.g. to crush something with the sharper end. (This end is broken off, showing a little hole inside, and the flint itself.

- An even more striking feature (see the second photo in the following posting) : there are "letter-like" signs on it, though unreadable. They are around the top surface, about 8 mm (0.3 inch) wide, and about 20 cm (8 inches) long, that is : originally, if they still had been complete. They are not complete anymore on one side because the signs on some parts were obbiously worn off by by holding the item in one's hand repeatedly. Where the thumb and the ball of the thumb are in touch with the object, the signs are worn off.

Two years ago I presented the item the photos) to a professional archaeologist asking him for an opinion. His answer : "The signs are fossilized crawl lanes (Flemish : 'kruipgangen') of small organisms living on the seafloor while the chalk surface of the flintstone, the cortex, was formed."

Having been a simple teacher, who am I to contradict an expert's opinion ? My only 'objection' was the very regular shape of the signs (8 mm x 20 cm, exactly around the top surface.) But who knows, maybe even micro-organisms at the time were so disciplined that they nicely marched in line (8 mm wide) on a flint stone on the sea floor.

Another archaeologist, who admitted that lithic objects are not his specialty, advanced the thought of the signs having a ritual function (adding : That is what archaeologists normally say about items that they do not know what to think of.)

My question : is there any geologist / archaeologist among the Forum members who has an opinion, maybe confirming the above quoted opinions ?

Let it be clear that I do not think (hope ?) that these mysterious signs are something prehistoric. Maybe they were made by someone 3 years ago who didn't know what to do with his spare time, intending to use it as the knob of a walking stick.

And who knows there will be a reply soon : "Hey, that's mine !!! I lost it near the Thiepval Memorial on 8 July 2002. Kindly stick a stamp on it and mail it to ... "

If not, I will continue using it as a paper weight of put it in my fish tank, where modern 21st century micro-organisms, if they feel like it, can continue the job well done by their prehistoric predecessors.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

And a detail.

[Simon R]

Aurel,

Thanks for sharing this, it's really wierd.

I would certainly think these trails have a biogenic origin. Don't forget that chalk is itself biogenic in origin and even bedded flints (like the Corallian cherts in Cretaceous chalks of Northern England) can contain fossils like sponge spicules.

It's also been rolled around under the plough, exhumed, re-buried, left alone, dug up, thrown about and randomly abused for an unkown period of time. Relatively modern biological activity could have produced this effect too. It is (to my knowledge) rare to find relict evidence of post-diagentic structures on a flint nodule, but not impossible. The regularity of these features does suggest a biological origin - a 'worm' of a certain size will produce a cast of a certain size won't it? The fact that it's preserved around the 'rim' and nowhere else, could suggest that it was formed in the relatively recent past. If our 'worm' hits a hard nodule of flint in the soil , wouldn't it just crawl right around it? It could just have been worn away by being in the ?plough? soil for so long. You wouldn't really use something like this as a hammerstone - it'd shatter and lacerate your hands!

As for the ritual thing....

[Aurel Sercu]

Simon,

I have to admit that, never having been involved in geology and things like that myself, this was not easy, but I have done my best, and think I understand most of your reply. Thanks.

Just this : the hardes part is when you write : "the regularity of these features does suggest a biological origin". Because I thought that a biological origin would result into a rather irregular pattern. And also that the regularity may point in the direction of a non-biological (man related ?) origin. (Though of course not necessarily.)

As to the possibility that some signs may have been worn away by the plough soil... I think it is so striking - I wish you could see the item yourself - that the places on the rim where the "signs" have (almost completely) disappeared perfectly match with where the thumb + ball of the thumb touch the stone.

But that the flint nodule cannot possibly be used as a hammerstone, you must be right. For someone else pointed that out to me too : it would shatter indeed.

Aurel

[Bert Heyvaert]

Hi Simon and Aurel!

For my sins, i am the one who brought up the 'ritual' meaning of this stone, and yes, it is indeed very unlikely. But as Aurel sais, it is strange that part of the pattern is deteriorated where hand friction might have caused it to. If you are not thinking of smashing it, there is not much you can do with a flintstone...

Maybe the patterns are naturally and not man made, but people in the distant past might have noticed this as well? As you say Simon, patterns like this are not very common. People in prehistory handled flint on a daily base, and they might have been as puzzled about it as we are now... And that where the 'ritual' idea - again, just a vague idea - came up.

But than again, I did not study prehistory ( although I took a few courses on lithics), and if I'm not mistaken than you did study prehistory Simon.

Aren't some of the nicest things archaeology brings us, the things we can't actually explain? Keeps us going I guess...

best regards,

Bert

[burlington]

Does anyone have any photos of the soil types on the Somme eg with flint nodules or chalk deposits evident in close up?

I am looking for an example for a talk I am giving next year on the 'Topography of the Somme'

This pic. would filll a gap in my photo library for this event as I am not going to the Somme until later next year.

Regards

Martin

[Simon R]

Aurel et al,

This flint nodule was collected by Eric Cowling from the Neolithic flint mines at Grimes Graves in Norfolk. I apologise for the pic. quality, just wanted to show one of similar shape for comparison. Flint nodules have a diagenetic origin and form from the replacement of silica rich skeletal remains (in fact biogenic opal) with varieties of quartz (mega-quartz, micro-quartz and chalcedonic-quartz) - the quartz will generally obliterate any internal fossil structure but fragments of sponges may still be found.

Their 'blob like' appearance probably derives from the fact that they develop in cavities within the host material which, in the Cretaceous of Western Europe, is chalk. Worm casts on the outer surface of a flint nodule are rare.

This example retains much of its outer cortex although it has evidently been rather roughly battered about the 'head' and then thrown away.

[Simon R]

And the reverse face.

[Steve Bramley]

In todays Independent there was an article entitled (something like) 'Neanderthal 'Butchers Shop' Discovered'.

Archeologists had made public their finds on the Somme of the remains of rhinocerus, elephant and the forerunner of the cow in what amounted to a Neanderthal waste dump, along with many flint tools,

Steve.

[jtreve]

Hoping someone can solve a bit of a geological mystery for me.

When I recently toured the old battlefields around the Somme region in France, I kept coming across strange formations of mineral/ stone/ molten something-or-other (??). These stone-like objects are often broken open and remind me of jade. Are these natural deposits, or are they some sort of molten debris from fire/ materiel/ destruction during the Somme battles? Are they detritus from artillery guns?? Metal, stone, mineral??? Any help would be appreciated to satisfy my curiosity.

Cheers.

Hi

When in the Vimy ridge area in early sept, I came across an excavation some 100 feet square and about 30 feet deep. It is very near the area of the 3rd div memorial and I could clearly see what appeard to be many 'v' shaped incursions of soil into the underlying chalk. Could these have been produced by artillery trounds? The chalk was riddled with these flint nodules and many of them resembled bone in texture and shape, I also found lots of them while traversing fields and crossing ditches.

Jake

[Simon R]

Oooooh, I will look at 'Neanderthal Butchers Shop Discovered' on Somme with great interest.

Any further details much appreciated.

[mhifle]

Aurel,

I have been have in touch with Dr Jon Radley about this at the Warwick Museum. Here is his reply.

Mark

"The author of the forum item is talking about a flint nodule, and it sounds like his archeological

contact attributed its peculiar form to formation around a burrow - quite common in

flints. Alternatively I guess it might be formed around a fossil sponge -hollow, round flints are commonly of this origin. As for the letter-like marking; also difficult to say anything meaningful without seeing it.

Perhaps they are 'chatter marks'; small arcuate grooves formed by interference amongst pebbles in a beach or high-energy river setting.

Quite happy if you post this up or put me in touch with the author. Not a lot I

can do without specimen or photo. I'd be interested to know where the memorial is. I guess it's a Tertiary or Chalk terrain in N France or Belgium. Incidentally, a mate of mine has published loads of papers,

articles and guidebooks on the influence of geology on WW 1sites, campaigns and battles. I'll see what i can find - it's interesting stuff.

All in a day's work!"

I can supply contact details, Mark.

[ianw]

I seem to recall a fascinating thread a while back commenting on the many finds made due to the extensive digging of trenches on the Western Front. A real treasure ( a gold item?) was found near the Black Sea I think.

[Aurel Sercu]

Hi Mhifle,

Thanks ! I will contact Dr Radley soon.

And I'll contact you too off Forum too (PM), for a detail.

Aurel