mtaylor Posted 18 January , 2016 Share Posted 18 January , 2016 Looking thorough the list of donations from the War Office to my local museum post-FWW I came across "German machine guns, two, with silencers". "Scrapped" written in later. An earlier entry on the list refers to "Bipods of Iron, two, for gun mounting, German" so I presume that the MGs were 08/15s. But 'silencers' surely not?? Were the long flash-guards mistaken for silencers or did they in fact reduce the noise of the MG? I suspect (but cannot prove) that the list was compiled by transcribing the original labels sent with the items by the WO but wonder how 'silencer' was introduced. Does anyone have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retlaw Posted 19 January , 2016 Share Posted 19 January , 2016 How the eck could you silence a machine gun, even if you could suppress the gas noise at the muzzle, there would still be tha crack of the bullet going thro sound barrier, and the blast as the empty cartridges were expelled as the breech opened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 19 January , 2016 Share Posted 19 January , 2016 Did not recognise the water jacket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 19 January , 2016 Share Posted 19 January , 2016 How the eck could you silence a machine gun, even if you could suppress the gas noise at the muzzle, there would still be tha crack of the bullet going thro sound barrier, and the blast as the empty cartridges were expelled as the breech opened. Sound moderators are quite effective in reducing the noise from high velocity rounds, though most effective on subsonic, i.e pistol rounds or subsonic .22 RF. Breeches remain locked until chamber pressures fall, and then the spent cartridge is extracted and ejected by recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 19 January , 2016 Share Posted 19 January , 2016 How the eck could you silence a machine gun, even if you could suppress the gas noise at the muzzle, there would still be tha crack of the bullet going thro sound barrier, and the blast as the empty cartridges were expelled as the breech opened. And the sonic crack as the bullet passed would be the noise that target soldiers downrange would be much the most aware of. Discharge noise is a just a remote dull thud 3 or 400 metres downrange, whilst supersonic passage is a fierce, nearby whipcrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted 19 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2016 Well gents I think that that's definitive! Thank you. Must be either a transcription error (for what though?) or as johnboy says mistaking the water jacket (or the long flash guard?) for something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 19 January , 2016 Share Posted 19 January , 2016 And the sonic crack as the bullet passed would be the noise that target soldiers downrange would be much the most aware of. Discharge noise is a just a remote dull thud 3 or 400 metres downrange, whilst supersonic passage is a fierce, nearby whipcrack. Crack Thump. British infantrymen are trained to judge the range from which a shot has been fired at them by assessing the time lag between the crack and the thump. I was mooching just outside the Bulford Range Danger Area this morning and listening out for the classic combo of machine gun fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 20 January , 2016 Share Posted 20 January , 2016 With the almost continual artillery and small arms fire on the Western Front, what possible use would there be for a silencer /suppressor on a machine gun (provided one would work)? I have used silenced firearms and I agree they are really only useful with a sub sonic round. They still make more noise than the movies would have you believe. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 21 January , 2016 Share Posted 21 January , 2016 With the almost continual artillery and small arms fire on the Western Front, what possible use would there be for a silencer /suppressor on a machine gun (provided one would work)? I have used silenced firearms and I agree they are really only useful with a sub sonic round. They still make more noise than the movies would have you believe. khaki The crack tells you nothing about direction. I'm just wondering if suppressing the thump had some value in preventing target troops from knowing where the fire was coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 21 January , 2016 Share Posted 21 January , 2016 Were the long flash-guards mistaken for silencers... I would suggest that this is the most likely explanation - has been discussed before on the Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 25 January , 2016 Share Posted 25 January , 2016 I would not wonder, in looking at my 08/15, that the person who identified the silencer, did not mistake the muzzle gland/booster as a silencer. Located behind the flash hider, I think it could be mistaken for a silencer. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 25 January , 2016 Share Posted 25 January , 2016 I would not wonder, in looking at my 08/15, that the person who identified the silencer, did not mistake the muzzle gland/booster as a silencer. Located behind the flash hider, I think it could be mistaken for a silencer. Ken I hadn't seen the pictures of the alleged silencers, but the muzzle gastraps I've seen pictures of on 08/15s looked too small to be mistaken for silencers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 2 February , 2016 Share Posted 2 February , 2016 The people involved in the distribution of trophies may easily have been confused. Although closer to the event, they may not have had any infantry experience and not had access to modern resources on weapons design and function. Until I see "genuine" silencer I would expect this reference to be either to boosters fitted with a long flash cone, or a booster with the flash cone missing. When the Australian War Memorial trophy distribution records are examined there are numerous ambiguous entries which make little sense. For some of these the weapon still survives and the misidentification becomes very hard to understand. Cheers RT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted 2 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2016 Fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 3 February , 2016 Share Posted 3 February , 2016 I would add another explanation. However firstly MTaylor have you been able to visit the actual museum to see if the items still exist despite 'scrapped' entry? Anyway, nothwithstanding the 08/15 muzzle assembly is in 3 parts, and that potentially this trophy could have been in a variety of states, ie bits of the muzzle assembly missing, or indeed just the muzzle gland, the item itself could have had the 08/15 BFA assembly. Therefore what could have been seen as a muzzle flash suppression and gas re-distribution system was then classed as a silencer. Not so crazy a description perhaps by the War Office librarian.!!! Although captured war trophys were I suspect in the main in a 'fighting' state who is to say that all the bring backs did not include wpns captured from depots/trg posts etc. Just a thought. Although an inter-war image the pattern of the two had not changed. The ''potential'' silencer to the right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted 3 February , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2016 Thank you for your info, a very plausible explanation. Sadly cannot be proved as definitely scrapped c1938. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Finneran Posted 3 February , 2016 Share Posted 3 February , 2016 Great shame about the scrapping but I think I read somewhere 're-cycling' for the next conflict had already begun in 1936! Such foresight. And some museums actually hid 'stuff'!!! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 3 February , 2016 Share Posted 3 February , 2016 It could happen again if EU directive goes thro! All guns could be confiscated and scrapped. Real threat to our heritage. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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