Northumberland Fusiliers, North West Frontier 1908

[Roger Deeks]

I am researching the 2nd Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers and would be grateful for advice as to:

1) Any information or history, particularly of places they were stationed in India before the war, and the campaign on the North West Frontier in 1908.

2) Recommendations of a battalion history in WW1.

Thanks, Roger

[MaureenE]

It seems to be the 1st Battalion, not the 2nd Battalion, which was in India from 1905-1913, according to Regiments.org, now an archived website.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071130095948/http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-inf/005-1.htm

The link quoted is from the FIBIS Fibiwiki page 5th Regiment of Foot.

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/5th_Regiment_of_Foot

For more about the North West Frontier Campaigns, see the FIBIS fibiwiki page of that name

http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/North_West_Frontier_Campaigns

Cheers

Maureen

[sotonmate]

D

The Long Long Trail page for the NF recommends a book of the WW1 History of 1 and 2 Battalions NF,select the red book at bottom left of the page.

[Graham Stewart]

I am researching the 2nd Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers and would be grateful for advice as to:

1) Any information or history, particularly of places they were stationed in India before the war, and the campaign on the North West Frontier in 1908.

2) Recommendations of a battalion history in WW1.

Thanks, Roger

2nd Bn didn't serve in India until 14th October 1913, and apart from service in South Africa, had served at home for 16years and were in England in 1908.

There journey began on the 24th September 1913, when they left Southampton at 4pm with the Battalion Band playing "Auld Lang Syne" and "The girl I left behind me". They anchored off Yarmouth that same evening before setting sail for India. They originally docked in Bombay before moving to Ambala on the 18th of the same month.

All movements of both the 1st & 2nd Bns can be seen in their monthly Notes in St.Georges Gazette - the Regimental Journal of which I have a full run.

[Roger Deeks]

Maureene, Sotonmate and Graham,

Thanks for your help and suggestions. I have checked and he was 1st Battalion in India. A good friend had found his name in the medal rolls and 1911 census, all showing his service inIndia and entitlement to medals including the IGS with 1908 North West Frontier clasp. I think I became confused because his MIC shows him arriving in France WW1 on 16th January 1915,when I believe the 2nd Battalion disembarked. On the BWM/Vic roll he is shown as 2nd Battalion (x2) and 1st Battalion (x3).

Graham my great uncle was 2041 Arthur E. Deeks, also awarded the LSGC. If you do have any information about him and/or his movements in India I would be grateful to know.

Many thanks for your help,

Roger

[Graham Stewart]

Your great uncle enlisted around April/May 1907 and I'll see what I can dig up, however I do have a feeling that he wasn't with the 1st Bn in 1908, as those similarly numbered recruits in the 20** series are held at the Depot until completion of training and were then sent to the 2nd Bn.

Have found he did receive his 1st Good Conduct Badge on the 10th March 1910 - while serving with the 1st Bn and he was at Gharial in the Murree Hills, India, when the announcement appeared in the Regimental Journal and he got his 2nd Good Conduct Badge with the 1st Bn on the 10th March 1912.

[regimentalrogue]

From my notes on 477781 Corporal Arthur Rix, MM, of The RCR, who previously served with the Northumberland Fusiliers.

The 1st Battalion, The Northumberland Fusiliers is recorded as serving in India from 1905 to 1912 in Peshawar, the NW Frontier and Bombay. The battalion returned to England in 1913. The battalion's operations on the NW Frontier included the Zakha Khel Expedition and the Mohmand Expedition (1908) between 14 Feb 1908 - 31 May 1908. 867 members of the battalion were eligible for the 1908 bar to the IGSM.

[Roger Deeks]

Graham,

Thanks for those useful gems, date of enlistment is very valuable to me, so is the detail about GC badges. He never married and his possessions were dispersed when he died in 1958 so I don't have much to go on. He was a Brummie, so how he ended up in the Northumberland Fusiliers is a mystery that only the recruiting sergeant will know. If anything else pops up please let me know.

Regimental Rogue; thanks for the quote, I will investigate those expeditions.

Roger

[Graham Stewart]

From my notes on 477781 Corporal Arthur Rix, MM, of The RCR, who previously served with the Northumberland Fusiliers.

Not quite correct I'm afraid - He enlisted sometime in October 1903 and was originally posted to the 3rd Bn, and he was still serving with them in South Africa in April 1906 when he was granted Service Pay of 6pence on the 27th March 1906. He then extended his service to eight years, receiving the Bounty of £15.00 - a lot of money at that time. They were stationed in Tempe Barracks, Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. On the disbandment of the 3rd Battalion in 1907, he was probably posted to the 1st Bn in India.

[Muerrisch]

The bounties [various, and at various dates] were clumsy expedients aimed at solving the problem of manning the Imperial garrisons [primarily India] following switchback changes in Terms of Engagement after the Boer War.

The take-up was usually disappointing.

There was bickering on the subject in Parliament from time to time for years!

[timsanders]

Not quite correct I'm afraid - He enlisted sometime in October 1903 and was originally posted to the 3rd Bn, and he was still serving with them in South Africa in April 1906 when he was granted Service Pay of 6pence on the 27th March 1906. He then extended his service to eight years, receiving the Bounty of £15.00 - a lot of money at that time. They were stationed in Tempe Barracks, Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. On the disbandment of the 3rd Battalion in 1907, he was probably posted to the 1st Bn in India.

Graham

Do your enlistment records denote how long the soldier enlisted for? Pte Sanders 457 enlisted in Feb 1904 but I've never known how long he was in the colours and which pre-1914 tours he embarked on.

[Muerrisch]

The usual Terms from May 1902 to Nov 1904 were three years colour, nine years reserve. As noted above, men of good conduct could extend subsequently, sometimes for a gratuity.

This was superceded by nine years colour, three reserve, another clumsy expedient.

In Sep 1906 the War Office came to its senses and brought back seven and five.

All the above is for Line Infantry ........ Foot Guards and other arms had different terms from time to time.

[regimentalrogue]

Not quite correct I'm afraid - He enlisted sometime in October 1903 and was originally posted to the 3rd Bn, and he was still serving with them in South Africa in April 1906 when he was granted Service Pay of 6pence on the 27th March 1906. He then extended his service to eight years, receiving the Bounty of £15.00 - a lot of money at that time. They were stationed in Tempe Barracks, Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. On the disbandment of the 3rd Battalion in 1907, he was probably posted to the 1st Bn in India.

Graham, thank you for that clarification, at the time I only had the medal to go on and sought the details of what expedition(s) he was most likely to have been part of with his regiment. I will update my notes and site.

[Graham Stewart]

Graham

Do your enlistment records denote how long the soldier enlisted for? Pte Sanders 457 enlisted in Feb 1904 but I've never known how long he was in the colours and which pre-1914 tours he embarked on.

Don't have exact lengths of service and as Grumpy has stated the Terms of Service were changed during this period. Will do some digging, but don't know how our Moderators will react as this is all pre-War research.

[Graham Stewart]

Graham

Do your enlistment records denote how long the soldier enlisted for? Pte Sanders 457 enlisted in Feb 1904 but I've never known how long he was in the colours and which pre-1914 tours he embarked on.

Again I have to report that your relative wasn't 1st Bn - he too was 3rd Bn and served in South Africa. He became a paid L/Cpl on the 24th March 1905 and was also granted 6pence Service Pay, again dated 24/3/05 and was in the same Tempe Brracks, Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. He was awarded his 1st Good Conduct Badge on the 23rd February 1906, again announced in April 1906, but unlike Rix mentioned above, does not extend to eight years.

[timsanders]

Again I have to report that your relative wasn't 1st Bn - he too was 3rd Bn and served in South Africa. He became a paid L/Cpl on the 24th March 1905 and was also granted 6pence Service Pay, again dated 24/3/05 and was in the same Tempe Brracks, Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. He was awarded his 1st Good Conduct Badge on the 23rd February 1906, again announced in April 1906, but unlike Rix mentioned above, does not extend to eight years.

Wow, I never knew this, thank you for the look up.

Can you explain how a L/Cpl in 3rd Bn comes to embark as a private in 1st Bn in August 1914? I find it fascinating he was working in a mill in Derbyshire and was on route to France less than a week later.

[timsanders]

The usual Terms from May 1902 to Nov 1904 were three years colour, nine years reserve. As noted above, men of good conduct could extend subsequently, sometimes for a gratuity.

This was superceded by nine years colour, three reserve, another clumsy expedient.

In Sep 1906 the War Office came to its senses and brought back seven and five.

All the above is for Line Infantry ........ Foot Guards and other arms had different terms from time to time.

Thanks Grumpy

So in my case, a soldier who'd served for just 3 years entered reserve in Feb 1907 to be called up for active service in August 1914? Maybe one for another topic but It's hard to imagine 1st NF being so desperate as to call up a 3rd Bn soldier who'd been on reserve for 7 years!

[Graham Stewart]

Wow, I never knew this, thank you for the look up.

Can you explain how a L/Cpl in 3rd Bn comes to embark as a private in 1st Bn in August 1914? I find it fascinating he was working in a mill in Derbyshire and was on route to France less than a week later.

As you've noted from Grumpys explanation of the Terms of Service - he was called back as a Reservist. I tried tracing him through the 1st Bn, after the disbandment of the 3rd in 1907 up to 1911, but there was no further trace, so suspect that he was returned to the UK for Discharge.

It's not unusual for relatives of former NF men to assume that they had served in either the 1st or 2nd Bns pre-WWI, but as you've seen there is always a good possibility that they did infact serve with either the 3rd or 4th Bns once training was completed at the Depot. People also assume that the majority of all men serving within County Regiment came from that specific County, but in the case of the Northumberlands that wasn't true and a large proportion of them came from other Counties.

[timsanders]

As you've noted from Grumpys explanation of the Terms of Service - he was called back as a Reservist. I tried tracing him through the 1st Bn, after the disbandment of the 3rd in 1907 up to 1911, but there was no further trace, so suspect that he was returned to the UK for Discharge.

It's not unusual for relatives of former NF men to assume that they had served in either the 1st or 2nd Bns pre-WWI, but as you've seen there is always a good possibility that they did infact serve with either the 3rd or 4th Bns once training was completed at the Depot. People also assume that the majority of all men serving within County Regiment came from that specific County, but in the case of the Northumberlands that wasn't true and a large proportion of them came from other Counties.

Thanks Graham, such a pleasure to learn from your vast NF knowledge.

Permit me to ask 1 more question; regarding his rank of L/Cpl was this still valid in 1914? Did 1st Bn, in need of men, look for L/Cpl's on reserve who would serve as Pte's? It's probably more complex than this but I wonder what the criteria was for selection as a reservist in 1914.

[Muerrisch]

A L/Cpl was a private on an appointment, not a promotion. Any man with a promotion to a substantive rank [full corporal at least] going on to reserve and then recalled would retain rank. A L/Cpl recalled would be recalled as a private.

[Vicky Arnall]

Hello Roger and I hope that you're well?

 

I've just come across your post 8 year too late; I hope not.

 

My grandad was purported to have served in India in 1908 as  boy soldier with I believe the Northumberland Fusiliers.

 

My dad, who died a couple of years ago always said this, but I having trouble locating any evidence from his regiment about this.

 

I'm hopefully when I get paid at the end of April to pay the £25 search fee with the Military Records at Kew and get some more information from that.

 

How did your research go?

 

Many thanks.

 

Vicky Arnall 

[Vicky Arnall]

Hello Roger and I hope that you're well?

 

I've just come across your post 8 year too late; I hope not.

 

My grandad was purported to have served in India in 1908 as  boy soldier with I believe the Northumberland Fusiliers.

 

My dad, who died a couple of years ago always said this, but I having trouble locating any evidence from his regiment about this.

 

I'm hopefully when I get paid at the end of April to pay the £25 search fee with the Military Records at Kew and get some more information from that.

 

How did your research go?

 

Many thanks.

 

Vicky Arnall 

I'm confused whom I'm replying to as replied to email, but that was wrong.

 

My grandad was born in Greyfriars Glasgow - April 1895 Eilliam John Mccabe

[Michelle Young]

@Roger Deeks visited the forum last October. Hopefully, my tag will alert him to your posts.