new3.2 Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 I recently purchased an m/1888 Commission 8mm rifle. It was made by Steyr in 1890. On the top barrel band is stamped:25.R8.159. I assume this is a unit marking? 25th regiment, 8th company, soldier number 159? I know there were several manufactures of this weapon, did the Austro/Hung. troops use this model? Thanks for any information. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Hi Ken (and Merry Christmas!) Is there a period between the R and the 8? (25.R.8.159) that would be more normal format I think (see here) In which case it would be as you say :25th Infantry Regiment. 8th Kompany. Weapon number 159 (I do not believe it equates to a soldiers service number). 25th Infantry would appear to be THIS ONE I am not sure on Austro-Hungarian use of the Gew 88. It would seem possible but I haven't seen photos of such, whereas I have seen many pics of M1895 rifles/short rifles and occasionally captured Nagants Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 27 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Chris- Of course I left the period off on my message! Thanks for the reply, you know where this fellow came from. I am working on having my grandson teach me how to post photos. The old dinosaur perhaps is trainable? Have a happy new year. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Yes the Austrians did use the Gew88, which in their service was known as the 'Repetier-Gewehr M.13'. I have seen photos of such usage somewhere ...??? Cheers, S>S EDIT. Found this one HERE of an Austrian soldier with the Gewehr 88, but fitted with a non-standard 'ersatz' seitengewehr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 EDIT. Found this one HERE of an Austrian soldier with the Gewehr 88, but fitted with a non-standard 'ersatz' seitengewehr. The source for the photograph is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/4284276600 The bayonet is identified there as a 'rare rare Werndl Ersatz-Seitengewehr', although to my eye it is something else... That aside, I gather that the KUK knew the Gew 88 as the "M1913 or just M13". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Unless you are satisfied that all the parts are original to the rifle, I don't take too much notice of the regimental numbering on the barrel bands. I imagine that these old rifles have been stripped down numerous times during their service life. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Ken, I may well be wrong but it seems to me you may be under the impression that, because your rifle is marked Steyr, it was supplied to the Austrians. At the time in question Steyr (OEWG) was the rifle manufacturer with the highest capacity in the world. Prussia ordered 250,000 Model 88 rifles from Steyr and these were delivered between August 1889 and December 1890. Saxony ordered 56,000 which were delivered by May 1891. Having said that, at the same time Steyr delivered 371,000 M.1888 rifles to the Austrians. Of note is the fact that the marking on the Prussian rifles was moved from roughly the top centre of the receiver ring to the rear, just in front of the bolt, sometime in 1890. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 And to add to that, I understand that the two armies used similar numbering systems... So, if a KuK marking, it is k.u.k. Ungarisches Infanterie Regiment „Edler von Pokorny“ Nr. 25, one of those mixed Hungarian and Slovak ones... If German, then Infanterie-Regiment von Lützow (1. Rheinisches) Nr. 25. Somewhere there should be a national mark indicating which State. I think I am right in saying that KuK bayonets had their own version of fraktur marks but these use a normal alphabet not a Gothic front. What about KuK rifles - and if a Steyr made rifle for Prussia, would it have a Prussian fraktur or an Austrian one? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 Julian, In answer to your last question, 88 rifles manufactured by Steyr for Germany have fewer stamps than those of other German manufacturers; instead of two or three on the right of the receiver ring there is only one on the Steyr rifles. The stamp always shows a gothic "K" - see attached photo. The "K" is characteristic of the Austrian method of stamping and probably stands for "Kontrolle". There was a regular Prussian acceptance detachment at Steyr. However, it appears the rifles only underwent a final, exterior examination and the only place where the stamp of an individual inspector may be found is on the stock. Note this information comes from German Military Rifles Vol.2. (88 and 91 Firearms) by Dieter Storz. Expensive but well worth getting and there is even some information about bayonets! I suppose the easiest way, at least initially, of determining whether a rifle was supplied to Germany is to look at the receiver to see if it is stamped with an "S" indicating the chamber alteration following the introduction of the "S" cartridge. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 At the time in question Steyr (OEWG) was the rifle manufacturer with the highest capacity in the world. Prussia ordered 250,000 Model 88 rifles from Steyr and these were delivered between August 1889 and December 1890. Saxony ordered 56,000 which were delivered by May 1891. Having said that, at the same time Steyr delivered 371,000 M.1888 rifles to the Austrians. Michael, may I ask what reference work you are quoting from with these figures you show above.? You are saying OEWG delivered over 370,000 'Commission' rifles to the Austrians circa 1890.? I wonder if you are confusing the M.1888 Commission Rifle (the Gewehr88 German service rifle) with the other M.1888 Mannlicher rifle made by OEWG which was the main Austrian service arm. I'm just struggling to believe that OEWG delivered the German Gew88 service rifles to the Austrians, at the same time that they were busy supplying them about a million M1888 Mannlicher rifles.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 27 December , 2015 Share Posted 27 December , 2015 S>S, I referred to the same source as mentioned #9 above. Yes, you are right - the rifles delivered to the Austrians were the Austrian M. 1888, the reference to the output being simply to illustrate the prodigious output of Steyr at that time which was, according to the same source, 1,400 rifles per day. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 December , 2015 Share Posted 28 December , 2015 Ahh, Okay then ... Carry on.! Just didn't want people getting the wrong impression about Austrian use of the Gew88. They didn't come by them 'til much later on - viz "M.13" Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 2 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2016 I have certainly open a can of worms on this topic, but I appreciate all the comments, and hope to retain the information. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 I have certainly open a can of worms on this topic ... Not at all Ken! You just started a healthy debate in the never-ending search for knowledge during which we all learn something new! However, I - and I suspect others - would welcome photographs of the markings which should help settle the matter... Trajan PS: is this one a 'shooter'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 I agree with Trajan, very interesting topic, the Gew88 has always been a favorite of mine. not only the large variety of Gew88 rifles but the bayonets that fit them, again I recommend the Scarlata book on the G88 for those who are interested. Lots of photographs of rifles, components, period photographs and easy readable data. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 5 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2016 Sorry for the late reply Trajan, I think it is a shooter, and hope to put a few rounds through it when Michigan weather becomes more spring like. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 January , 2016 Share Posted 5 January , 2016 Ken - if you can email me photos I can post them up here for you! Looking forward to seeing it myself. Most of Sangamon Co is underwater at the moment - its warm enough to go out and shoot but you'd have to find 100yds that was not a foot deep in water! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 5 January , 2016 Share Posted 5 January , 2016 Not really relevant but I thought I would tag it onto the end of this post as we are talking about Gew 88's, I have never quite understood why some collectors here (and I am not referring to any forum members) seem to feel that a G88 with Turkish markings is somehow inferior as a collectors piece, I have always considered it as another page in the rifles history, no different to me as say, a No1 Mk3 Enfield acquiring Dominion markings. The same applies to bayonets. Oh well, what others disdain, is my gain. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 January , 2016 Share Posted 5 January , 2016 ... another page in the rifles history, no different to me as say a No1 Mk3 Enfield acquiring Dominion markings. The same applies to bayonets. ... Indeed! Mind you, there is quite a market in all those P.1907's that were not good enough for home use and so were 'SOS' and sent to the colonies to be issued and unit-marked there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 Also not directly relevant but harking back to posts 4 and 5, on the 'M.13', according to that noted authority JPS over on GBF, "During WWI, Germany supplied Austria-Hungary with 72,600 Gew 88s that were issued as the M13 in K.u.K. service." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 Interesting Julian, Did it mention whether bayonets were supplied with the rifles as part of the inventory?, would that have been standard practice? I presume ammunition too? regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 Good points there Khaki! I'll try and check on bayonets, but one of the rifle buffs (4G? Michael H?) will be better for the ammunition issue. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 ... Did it mention whether bayonets were supplied with the rifles as part of the inventory?, would that have been standard practice? ... I looked back at the post by JPS - if you need to check it is here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?420841-Austrian-M88-Bayonet-For-German-Gew88&p=3555920#post3555920 Briefly, he says: "the standard bayonets that were supplied by Germany with the rifles [i.e., the 'M.13'] were the M1871 Hirschfanger and the Pionierfaschinenmesser M65/71. The balance of bayonets that were issued with these rifles were altered M1867, M1870 and M1873 Werndl bayonets." This might explain why Drake Goodman, the poster of the KuK man with the Gew.88, as at https://www.flickr.c...dman/4284276600, identified the bayonet there as a 'rare rare Werndl Ersatz-Seitengewehr' - but it seems too short and wrong mounting system to me... But, hey, what do I know about KuK bayonets? Zilch - other than their re-used Russian ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 The 'bayonet' on the 'Gew88/M13' in the photo which I linked in post#4 is of course an Austrian style flat-stave ersatz bayonet. (A particularly Austrian 'ersatz' design) It's always dangerous to take much notice of the speculation of 'non-specialists' as they are usually well out of their comfort zone. This doesn't seem to stop them.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2016 Share Posted 7 January , 2016 Thanks for confirming my doubts on the identification of that bayonet SS! JPS does have a fair collection and knowledge of such things, as you well know, and he was naming what the "standard" bayonet should be, so the mistake in the caption is that of your compatriot's! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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