Aurel Sercu Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 For some reasons I have always taken a special interest in Talana Farm Cemetery, Boezinge, just south of the built-up area of my village. First all because that is where the comrades were buried of many men we (the Diggers) found on the east bank of the canal, who did not make it to that cemetery ... But also because this cemetery is a good example of how a cemetery grows (and it was not enlarged after the war with soldiers from other smaller cemeteries). One can easily see its history. (Especially when using aerial photos.) Right now, while I am doing research on the 27 French soldiers (zouaves) who were buried there in April - May 1915 (starting the cemetery) and who were later, in the 1920s were moved to France (Notre Dame de Lorette), I am inevitably being attracted again by a mystery that has puzzled me for over 20 years. Some older sources (I think : based on the roriginal CWGC register) point out that there were 2 Americans, who were removed. Americans north of Ypres ?! That is so unlikely ... Yet mathematically I tend to believe it : original number of graves was 559. Of them : 27 French soldiers were repatriated. So : 2 American (?) soldiers must have been moved elsewhere too. I just wish I could find what they were doing there. And ... their names. But all my efforts so far have been in vain. The French moved soldiers are listed on the Graves Registration Report forms. But these two Americans are not. Was that because when these forms were drawn up they had already been moved ? There is a date on the documents, Sept. 1923, but maybe the were drawn up before that ? I have also contacted one of the two authors of "De soldaten van de Amerikaanse begraafplaats Flanders Fields"( in Waregem), 2011. But I was informed that no American soldiers there came from Boezinge. Now I am wondering : could these 2 American soldiers have been in British service ? And my following question : was it common to repatriate Americans in British service to the States ? Was that allowed ? And if someone has other ideas, I would be grateful hear them. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 24 December , 2015 Share Posted 24 December , 2015 Hello Aurel, What I haven't been able to ascertain, is whether the US repatriation scheme was applicable to all citizens, or only those who fought with the AEF. I would have thought it was the former and if so, it is more likely that an American was with the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF). This supposes that the Americans were identified by their citizenship, as opposed to the force they fought with. In my research into Dominion exhumations in the UK, I came across several items of correspondence between our Home Office and the US authorities. Unfortunately I didn't keep a record of it, but it would not have been later than the first half of 1921. Therefore, it is likely that your 1923 schedule would post date the exhumations you are trying to locate. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 25 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2015 Thanks, Phil. And I have just seen that the subject of repatriation was also discussed in http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48987 Not that it solves my problem... No help either in Major Holt's Ypres Salient. (I remembered that there are 3 of 4 US soldiers in Lijssenthoek Cemetery (R. King, H. King, J. Pigue, D. Beattie), and hoped that maybe something would be said there re US repatriation ...) Aurel P.S. And I found "When World War I ended, the families of 43,909 dead troops asked for their remains to be brought back to the U.S. by boat, while roughly 20,000 chose to have the bodies remain in Europe. The war ended in 1918, but the first bodies of troops killed in the conflict weren't sent back to the U.S. until 1921 here : http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704269204575270841057314162 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 27 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2015 My topic question is not very successful, I know. But the less successful it is, the more motivated I am to find an answer. That's me. :-) So let me attach a related question. I am also interested in the removed French soldiers (zouaves) in the cemetery. This is a Graves Registration Report Form (downloaded from CWGC). Typewritten. And some handmade corrections (deleting the dozen French men in the top half.) And a date in the bottom righ corner : 10-9-23. The ink colour of this date is darker than the diagonal handwritten correction "Removed". Yet I assume that "Removed" was written on that date. (Or maybe a day or two (three ?) before 10-9-23.) My question : I have no idea when the typewritten data were typed. But I assume that this was some time (long ?) before 10-9-23. But I have no idea when that may have been. 1919 ? 1920 ? 1921 ? 1922 ? Early 1923 ? I have all the GRR Forms of Talana Farm Cemetery, but none mentions a typewritten date. I am interested in a date because if the date or year is relatively late, that would explain why I can't find the 2 US soldiers on these GRRForms. (Because the may have been removed already before the document was drawn up.) And I have a second question. I am beginning to believe more and more that these two US men were not in the US army, but were in British Service. Someone told me that if they were in British Service (and entered in the beginning of the war), they lost their American rights (being at war with a nation that the US were not officially at war with at the time). So : they could not be repatriated to the US after the war. Question : is that true ? (Is it true that Americans in British service never were repatriated ? I know about American soldier Reginald King in Lijssenthoek Cemetery, who was in British service, and he was not repatriated. Whether that was the reason that he was not repatriated, I don't know. Neither do I know if maybe other Americans in British service in Lijssenthoek Cemetery were moved back to the US.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 I have the names of 37 American surgeons (M.O.R.C., U.S.) who lost their lives whilst serving with British units. Some were with Field Ambulances and some served as RMOs. I’ve not traced much information about them as yet, but have it recorded that one - 2/Lieut Joseph Favre Baldwin was KIA on 7th August 1918 and was buried in Franvillers Communal Cemetery Extension, Somme. He doesn’t appear to be there now and I cannot trace where he was moved to. None of the men appear on the CWGC website or on the American Battle Monuments Commission website. It’s a long shot but there is a possibility these two Americans could have been surgeons, I guess. Just a thought... Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Barbara, Thanks for your reply. And I am learning all the time, re Americans in WW1. Like that Americans in the beginning of the war, when the US was not officially at war, could not be repatriated after the war, contrary to those who fell in 1917-1918. Joseph Baldwin was KIA on 7 Aug. 1917. Is it possible that he was repatriated (even if he was in British service ?) after the war ? Or does the fact that he is not on the American Battle Monuments Commission website mean that he was not ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 ... I am learning all the time, re Americans in WW1.... Like that Americans in the beginning of the war, when the US was not officially at war, could not be repatriated after the war, contrary to those who fell in 1917-1918... That's not actually true, Aurel. Even the families of those who fell whilst in French service from as early as 1915 were given the same choice and rights regarding repatriation post-war as were those of US citizens who fell whilst serving in the US Army 1917-18. There are plenty of examples of US citizens who were killed fighting for France who are now buried in the USA following the repatriation scheme. Some lie in civilian cemeteries in France, others in French military cemeteries...some are even buried in US military cemeteries (such as Victor Chapman who is buried in the Meuse Argonne American Cemetery... he was killed in action over Douaumont in June 1916)..... all was at the choice of the individual's family post-war...but many more are buried in the USA. The only nation who forbade repatriation of US citizens serving in its army was Britain (in accordance with it's wargraves rulings) ...unless they were serving in the C.E.F. and hadn't yet been posted on active service. ... if they were in British Service (and entered in the beginning of the war), they lost their American rights (being at war with a nation that the US were not officially at war with at the time).... Not true either! They certainly didn't lose any rights for enlisting in the French Army (which actually launched active recruiting campaigns in the USA prior to 1917!**) - so I doubt that they would have for enlisting in the British army. There was talk of it - and, indeed, there is written legislation stating it - but it was wavered during WW1 (and WW2 and in between, etc). It only came into play if a US citizen enlisted into an army that was actively engaged in hostilities against the USA. Personally, I'd say that the 2 US soldiers in question were, indeed, soldiers in the US Army and their remains repatriated or (less likely) moved to F.F. Cemetery at Waregem. Three complete US divisions (plus several other units on attachment to British divisions) served in the Ypres Salient...mainly in the south and to the rear, but I wouldn't have thought it particularly unusual to find US Army graves north of the town too. Dave ** One particularly famous recruiting campaign involved a New Yorker named Raymond Capdeveille who enlisted into the Legion Etrangere in Paris on August 21st 1914. A much decorated combat veteran, he transferred to the 170 RI and received rapid promotions. As an Officier Aspirant, he returned to the US in June 1917 (funded by the French government) and spoke at West Point and at several other Army camps before returning to France. As a Sous-Lieutenant in the 170e RI and chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur, he was killed in action on October 3rd 1918 (the last of the US enlistments of 1914 to die in the war). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 I recall hearing a talk once that some question was asked about Americans joining the British forces having to swear allegance to the King & did this void their citizenship. It wa said a ruling was made later that any US citizen who served in an ALLIED force was deemed to have not lost any rights as to US citizenship. So all who served in Allied armies or navies were ok. The US gave families the choice of burial overseas or returned home at govt expense. This policy may have also included those serving in other armies who were US citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 . The US gave families the choice of burial overseas or returned home at govt expense. This policy may have also included those serving in other armies who were US citizens. As I just mentioned... this policy did include US citizens serving in other armies, apart from those serving in the British army. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Joseph Baldwin was KIA on 7 Aug. 1917. Is it possible that he was repatriated (even if he was in British service ?) after the war ? Or does the fact that he is not on the American Battle Monuments Commission website mean that he was not ? None of the 37 American surgeons are on the American Battle Monuments Commission Website - perhaps because they didn't serve with the USA military. I thought that maybe they were all repatriated to the USA after the war as it would appear strange to move them to an American cemetery on the Western Front and then ignore them. Would they not be on the website if they were in an American cemetery in France or Belgium? As I work my way though the war diaries I am hoping to get more information about them. Hopefully find out the area they would all have been buried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Would they not be on the website if they were in an American cemetery in France or Belgium? If they were in an American Cemetery in France/Belgium... or were posted as 'missing' and have no known grave (and, therefore, appear by name on the 'Tablets of the Missing' in one of the cemeteries)... then, yes, they would be listed on the ABMC website listing. Their omission simply means that their burials are outside the jurisdiction of the ABMC. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Their omission simply means that their burials are outside the jurisdiction of the ABMC. Assuming they were originally buried by the British, as they were serving with British Units, could the British have authorised and aided their repatriation to America do you think? That might explain why no one is commemorating them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Assuming they were originally buried by the British, as they were serving with British Units, could the British have authorised and aided their repatriation to America do you think? That might explain why no one is commemorating them.... If they were US Army on attachment or seconded to British units, then they still fall under the ABMC or were eligible for repatriation. If they were actually serving as part of the RAMC (either through original enlistment or transfer...though NOT if part of an officer exchange), then they fall under the CWGC jurisdiction and would, therefore, NOT be eligible for repatriation. In this case, though, seeing as there is no CWGC record, it would appear that they were still US military personnel on attachment and repatriated. When repatriated, the graves are not an ABMC responsibility. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Ok, thanks I've just tried the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs website as it appears they record the men who are buried in State veteran or private cemeteries but they are not recorded there either. In all the war diaries they are recorded as M.O.R.C. U.S. (Medical Officers Reserve Corps). Maybe they were a voluntary organisation so do not come under the military - that would make sense too. But they should be officially commemorated, I think.... Thanks Dave, I will keep trying to gather info on them. Even if they only appear on my website it will be something I guess. Regards Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 30 December , 2015 Share Posted 30 December , 2015 Ok, thanks In all the war diaries they are recorded as M.O.R.C. U.S. (Medical Officers Reserve Corps). Maybe they were a voluntary organisation so do not come under the military - that would make sense too. MORC (which replaced the MRC in June 1917) was part of the US Army Reserve so, it was certainly under the military. Definitely looks like they were all repatriated. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJanman Posted 31 December , 2015 Share Posted 31 December , 2015 I thought they must have been. Thanks again Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 31 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2015 Dave, Loader and Barbara, I read the postings a couple of hours ago. I will reply of course. (Just waiting for something.) But ... the reply will not be in 2015 anymore ... :-( and :-) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2016 Dave, Your posting # 7. I'm afraid I am not sure I understand. Let me ask again : do you think / are you almost sure that Americans, even those in the beginning of the war, who were in British service, and who fell in the Ypres area, after the war could be repatriated to the US ? But then your sentence "The only nation who forbade repatriation of US citizens serving in its army was Britain (in accordance with it's wargraves rulings)" says that repatriation was not possible ? (Maybe too soon in 2016 to think clearly for me. :-) ) As to the disappeared Americans (?) in Talana Farm. I agree, I do not know everything that happened in Boezinge, there are many black holes (especially 1916 and 1918), but US men north of Ypres, and in Boezinge ? I find that so hard to believe. True, there are 3 Americans in Artillery Wood Cemetery here in Boezinge, but these were in British service. The quest goes on ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 2 January , 2016 Share Posted 2 January , 2016 I'm afraid I am not sure I understand. Let me ask again : do you think / are you almost sure that Americans, even those in the beginning of the war, who were in British service, and who fell in the Ypres area, after the war could be repatriated to the US ? Hi Aurel, I'll attempt to simplify it, but in answer to: 'do you think / are you almost sure that Americans, even those in the beginning of the war, who were in British service, and who fell in the Ypres area, after the war could be repatriated to the US ?' The answer is a resounding 'No' to those who were in British service, but a 'yes' to those who were in any service other than the British (and German of course!). Americans who were serving in the US Army, French Army, Italian Army and Belgian Army were all liable to repatriation under the same terms as a standard US serviceman. Initially, it was repatriation under the terms of the army in which they were serving, but they later came under the same terms as any other fallen American. An American who had enlisted in the British Army became 'British' as far as the war graves commission was concerned and, so, was governed by the British rulings (ie. no repatriation). Below are a few examples of the burial of Americans to illustrate what I am trying to explain... James Mitchell from Washington (3RM/1RE)... KIA 22nd Feb 1915.... buried in the ossuary of the necropole Nationale at Dompierre. Edward Mandell Stone from Chicago (2R/2RE)... DoW 27th Feb 1915.... buried in the Carrere Militaire of the civil cemetery at Romilly. Kenneth Weeks from Boston ( 2RM/1RE) ... KIA 16th June 1915 ..... buried in a private grave in the civil cemetery at Ecoivres. Victor Chapman from New York (Escadrille.124 (Americaine), 1er Groupe d'Aviation) ...KIA 16th June 1916.... buried in the Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery, Romagne Kiffin Yates Rockwell from Newport (Escadrille.124 (Americaine), 1er Groupe d'Aviation)... KIA 23rd Sept 1916 ....buried at the Lafayette Memorial, Hauts de Seine, Paris. Ferdinand Capdeveille from New York, (170 RI) ... KIA 3rd October 1918.... buried in the necropole Nationale at Orfeuil. Julian Cornell Biddle from Philadelphia ( RMLE (attchd' Escadrille Lafayette).... KIA 18th August 1917... buried at Whitemarsh, Pennsylvania, USA All the above served in the French Army but, as you can see, burials were at the choice of the next of kin (or, if none, then they were buried as 'French') which leads to a variety of burial locations (civilian cemeteries in France, repatriation to the USA, French military cemeteries, French military plots in civilian cemeteries, US cemeteries) There are several examples of Americans who enlisted in the British Army (both on this forum and on the WWW) ... with no exception, they are all buried or commemorated in accordance with the CWGC....none were repatriated. The 'US' graves in Talana Farm simply have to be what they say..... US Servicemen. They will definitely NOT be Americans who had served in British regiments. They could be US servicemen who were attached to British regiments, but they would still have been US Army personnel. I'd bet that they were US soldiers who died of wounds or in accidents or of illness somewhere in the area... after all several other British cemeteries contained US Army personnel (Nine Elms and Hagle Dump (which even had its own US Graves Registration number) being two from which I have researched US Army casualties). (Ik weet niet of dat helpt of belemmert!!!!! ) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2016 Dave, Thanks, you have made it clear, on and off Forum. Now I understand. Unfortunately I have not found my two Americans yet ... *** Just this, and I hope that someone who can help me will read this. I would like to see the original CWGC register of Talana Farm Cemetery. My sources (two or three) saying that there used to be two American soldiers who were removed, no doubt must have taken that from the original register. Which I haven't seen ... But next Wednesday I'll be going to the IFFM Doc. Centre in Ypres, and I hope they have it there. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 5 January , 2016 Share Posted 5 January , 2016 I would like to see the original CWGC register of Talana Farm Cemetery. My sources (two or three) saying that there used to be two American soldiers who were removed, no doubt must have taken that from the original register. Which I haven't seen ... But next Wednesday I'll be going to the IFFM Doc. Centre in Ypres, and I hope they have it there. I believe that the original register mentions that 2 Americans were removed but gives no further detail as they had already been removed by the time of publication. I wonder whether the ABMC might have some detail? I know that they have no names on current record as the remains were repatriated, but I'm just thinking that if Lissenthoek, Nine Elms, Abeele Aerodrome and Hagle Dump all had 'official' US cemetery numbers (even though they were just US plots in British cemeteries), then so might Talana Farm? The ABMC 'might' have details under the original 'American Cemetery' number somewhere in their (offline) archives, perhaps? Just a thought. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Kerr1 Posted 22 January , 2016 Share Posted 22 January , 2016 are these bits of drawing of interest? Joe - 3 graves you mentioned at Talana Farm Cemetery are shown here - Copy (4).tif Joe - 1 graves you mentioned at Talana Farm Cemetery are shown here - Copy.tif Joe - 2 graves you mentioned at Talana Farm Cemetery are shown here - Copy (2).tif Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 22 January , 2016 Share Posted 22 January , 2016 Joe, I should think that Aurel will be more than happy with that. What was the source? Comparing it with the modern layout, it looks like Plot III, Row L, Graves 14 and 15 that they were exhumed from. They would only show up on an earlier version of the GRR Form than that on the CWGC database. Row L stops at L.13 on Report No.4, Schedule 18.C Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2016 Joe, I am more than happy with that. What was the source ? No, you are not having a déjà vu. Maybe a "déjà lu". As I am echoing what Phil wrote. :-) I don't have the names yet, nor what happened to them (repatriated ?), but knowing where they were buried in Talana Farm Cemetery (the very last row). The grave next to them (III - L - 13) is 22 Nov. 1917. So I guess they were buried (died) after that date. Whether that was after the last grave in plot IV (Row J grave 12), 23 March 1918, I don't know. If they died after that date they may have been buried in Plot III, because there was enough room there. Thanks ! Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Kerr1 Posted 25 January , 2016 Share Posted 25 January , 2016 What was the source? Row L, Graves 14 and 15 that they were exhumed from. The source was the 'DADGR&E' and it was row L graves 14 and 15 J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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