PPF Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 http://loc.gov/pictures/resource/ggbain.17786/ Is that an Imperial Russian Army or Imperial Russion navy flag at lower left hand quarter of picture? Taken prehaps in 1914-1915? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Navy I would say. The chap with the flag certainly has the look of a Russian. Can anyone identify the aircraft type? Nieuport perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils d Posted 22 December , 2015 Share Posted 22 December , 2015 The flag is a Union Jack/White Ensign is the plane a Vickers FB5? lm not getting "Russian" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 22 December , 2015 Share Posted 22 December , 2015 Check out the flag a bit more. I must admit that White Ensign was my initial thought - but closer study shows it's not a Union Flag. I'm now thinking it could be a 'pusher' type, considering the fact that the prop is still in one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingoworlddk Posted 22 December , 2015 Share Posted 22 December , 2015 The flag appears to carry in the upper right-hand corner the Russian Imperial Naval Jack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russian_Navy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 December , 2015 Share Posted 23 December , 2015 Interesting photograph that! To details... The 'chap with the flag' is as German as can be - he has the uniform of a Freiwillige-Krankenpflege, a volunteer medical assistant, blue tunic and trousers, white collar flash with a red cross, and white band around the hat. These guys served up to but behind the front lines as non-combatants and so carried no weapons. The Russian Imperial-style flag obviously gives an upper limit of early-mid-1917, but the German officer with a sword suggests that it is indeed from an earlier period: on the 19th July 1915, Prussian officers and those in the associated States up to regimental rank, so excluding the higher nabobs, were ordered to replace their swords with the S.98/05 bayonet, and on 20th August 1915, the same orders were issued to the Bavarian army. So, a probable end-date of mid-late 1915 seems likely for this photograph. An early GW date is also suggested by the soldiers with the pre-GW-style blue uniforms, who could be Landwehr / Landsturm. Now, a very, very tentative suggestion about the fixed bayonet on the rifle that the NCO is carrying: the man behind him in field grey is almost certainly wearing an S.98 to judge from the way the scabbard goes to his knees, and if so, then as the fixed bayonet looks a tad shorter, it is quite possibly an S.71... Yes, I know, a very very tentative suggestion indeed , but this is the sort of thing a Landwehr / Landsturm man would have in the early war period, as by about 1917, they were being supplied with the Gew.98 and so the S.98/05. But what is that building? There seems to be a kind of metric scale marker up there on the first floor? It certainly looks like the markings on a a surveying staff, with reversed colours to denote metre sections, the white and black (or red?) squares being 10 cm divisions? Finally, nope, no idea at all about the 'plane...!!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Wade Posted 23 December , 2015 Share Posted 23 December , 2015 OK, some musings about the whole picture. There's a gas lamp on the right side, very faint. Suggests a built up area. My first thought about the building was that it was long and thin, this must be deliberate and possibly part of its function. I thought it looked like a railway water tower, apart from the windows which would tend to leak a bit! Don't suppose they could be fake panels? Very detailed, with 'corbel' bricks supporting the top section. Is it possible that it's the back of it and it's a signal box or a control tower of sorts? Also, is the aeroplane about to be loaded on to a train truck for transportation? Could the raised wood and metal section at bottom right be a railway platform? There's even a piece of metal channel laid on the right side of the photograph, which could be used for a temporary ramp for a cart wheel. Finally, on the extreme left of the image, there's what appears to me, to be the side of a railway truck? It doesn't look like it's part of the cart and appears to be in the background. If not a railway truck, then what is it? OK, I'll admit it, I like trains... "You want to watch that bayonet mate, you could have someone's eye out with that..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils d Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 OK I think you win the flag argument, not that Ive ever seen a Russian Jack before[you live and learn] But why would a plane carry a flag? Aircraft might be a Henri Farman. That metric scale marker might be for measuring rail carriages to ensure they fit under bridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils d Posted 29 December , 2015 Share Posted 29 December , 2015 The cart is sitting on a railway loading platform, with a flatbed carriage on the right.The wreck is about to be unloaded as there are chocks under the wagon wheels. Now I feel the aircraft is a Voison but having had three goes at this what do l know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 31 December , 2015 Share Posted 31 December , 2015 Now I feel the aircraft is a Voison but having had three goes at this what do l know? Unlikely to be a Voisin as I believe they all had Salmson Canton-Unne water-cooled engines. I think this engine is probably a Gnome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James A Pratt III Posted 3 January , 2016 Share Posted 3 January , 2016 Trajan for a young nimrod you know your stuff. I would also say it looks like a Farman from the engine and fuel tank. The flag looks like the Russian aeronautical flag. A "union jack" in the corner and a winged anchor. I have seen pictures of this flag flying from airbases and a observation balloon. I have read that they were also sometimes flown from airships. The flag came into use in 1894. On 19 August 1914 there was a suggestion that Russian aircraft carry markings to prevent friendly fire problems. Russian soldiers many who had never seen a airplane before tend to fire at all aircraft. From what I have read roundel were painted on all military aircraft by October/November 1914. It could be the crew of this plane in early WW I decided to fly the flag from the plane to identify it as friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Posted 5 January , 2016 Share Posted 5 January , 2016 Very interesting. I have found a postcard version with more details. But I could not trace anything about this colonel, I presume would be Oskar von Hindenburg? Maybe someone can see if he actually downed a Russian airplane? Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCudden Posted 6 January , 2016 Share Posted 6 January , 2016 My money is on this being a Voisin Type 3 pusher aircraft. I think the nacelle is visible on the cart in the background and it looks a likely candidate to me (albeit with a dented nose). Alec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete-c Posted 7 January , 2016 Share Posted 7 January , 2016 Maybe we're looking at the remains of two machines; I'd still put my money on the engine in the photo being a Gnome Monosoupape - therefore not from a Voisin of this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2016 Share Posted 7 January , 2016 ... But I could not trace anything about this colonel, I presume would be Oskar von Hindenburg? According to Wikki.de, Oskar v.H., son of the later Reichspresident, was a mere Hauptmann in the GW, and did not make Oberst until 1932 - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_von_Hindenburg In which case if this is an Oberst v.H., persumably a cadet branch of the family? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James A Pratt III Posted 23 January , 2016 Share Posted 23 January , 2016 After looking through "French aircraft of World War I" I still think the plane is a Farman mainly based on the shape of the fuel tank. Also the engine looks like one on a Farman and the nose of the nacelle looks more like one on a Farman. The Voisin's nose is more squared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBobolopolis Posted 29 August , 2023 Share Posted 29 August , 2023 In the late 19th century, Russia acknowledged the strategic imperatives of aeronautical advancements, inaugurating an "aeronautical balloon unit" in 1870. This initiative marked the beginning of a concerted effort to institutionalize aeronautics within the Russian military architecture. While technical capabilities were pivotal, the symbolic aspect was equally important for defining the identity of these nascent units. The "winged anchor" insignia, subsequently adopted, encapsulates a synthesis of elemental forces—air and earth—represented by wings and the anchor, respectively. The anchor's functional utility during balloon descents conferred upon it an added layer of symbolism as a tether to the earthly realm. Emperor Alexander III sanctioned this emblem in 1890, thereby embedding it into the military attire of Russian aeronautical units. In 1894, after extensive consultations among engineering and military cognoscenti, the ensign for these units was officially codified. Unlike the flags used by ground or naval units, this ensign was not conceived as a military banner but as a 'distinctive aeronautical mark.' Its design incorporates a historical "jack"—a white cross intersected by the St. Andrew's cross on a red field—evoking a sense of continuity with Russian naval traditions. The photograph in discussion offers an invaluable glimpse into Russian aeronautical configurations during World War I, more specifically during the Battle of Tannenberg. It likely depicts abandoned Nieuport IV aircraft, along with their Gnome Monosoupape 9 engines and the Российский Императорский Военно-Воздушный Флот (RIVVF) ensign—elements subsequently appropriated as war spoils. The accoutrements visible in the photograph likely pertain to the 3rd Корпус Aэростатический Отряд (KAO). The individual holding the ensign is affiliated with the Freiwillige-Krankenpflege, a Volunteer Nursing corps within a German field medical unit. This photograph is but one of the many scrutinized in the book 'Without Flyers, No Tannenberg: Shooting the Front—Eastern Operations Aviation on the Eastern Front of 1914—Evolution of a Critical Role for Modern Warfare,' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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