jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Hi all I thought I would post photos of two more early Australian bayonets that I have recently acquired. First up is a P07 manufactured by Sanderson and dated '08 '09, with the sold out of service mark on the pommel and the State of Victoria 'V1108' marking on the crossguard. My understanding is that this is a pre-WW1 marking, and thus it may have been one of the bayonets taken with the first Australian contingents to Egypt and Gallipoli. The small button Lithgow scabbard is has a later marking to the 6th Military District (Tasmania). This bayonet has clearly seen a long and tough life, with strong sharpening on the blade (visible in the photos) and grinding marks over much of the remainder of the bayonet - including crossguard. The finish is a little unusual (quite a matt silver - like it has been sandblasted or similar) - I'm not sure whether this (and the grinding) is something that was done to the bayonet later in its Australian service, or once it was sent to the US later in its life. Presumably some of it may have been done when the hooked quillon was removed - presumably during 1915/1916 or thereabouts. Either way, its nice to have found another of these early British bayonets that were used by the Australians at the outset of the war Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 And here's the second. A P07 manufactured by Wilkinson and dated '08 '10, with the sold out of service arrows on the pommel and a 3MD marking on the cross guard. Again, this bayonet seems to have had a hard life - and has been heavily sharpened and blued - but is another tough to find example of the early British made Australian marked P07s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Some nice markings on those bayonets J. The first Sanderson example is a very early numbering for Victoria, and I do have a few other 1909 Sanderson's marked to Victoria. The other Wilkinson is more of a mystery as the 3MD markings didn't start appearing until around 1914. Can you confirm what the serial and MD number is on the crossguard. Is the first small stud scabbard double seamed.? If not then it has had the topmount switched around at some stage. Either way a nice scabbard to have and made about 1920. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Hi S>S Yes I thought the first bayonet had a double seamed scabbard when I purchased it (based on the photos), however it is only seamed on the front which is unusual. As you say, the top mount must have been switched at some point. The scabbard leather is marked 'Mangrovite '41' - so presumably the scabbard was built then using a 1920s small stud top mount. And I agree the second bayonet's crossguard markings are odd. The marking is 3MD [9??] 1360. The '1360' is a strong deep marking, and the 3MD and the 9 (I'm not 100% sure this is a 9 but it seems to be) are a lot more feint - as you can probably see in the photo. Potentially the original prefix to the '1360' was ground off and replaced with the 3MD? Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 A fair bit of 'rebuilding' going on with that first bayonet and scabbard by the looks. Grips have been replaced as well, and the topmount was attached back to front.? Regarding the second bayonet, the first 3MD markings that I have listed start with 25###, and I have NO Wilkinson 1910's listed for any State as of yet. A bit weird.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 J, I have had a bit more of a think on your last one, and had another look through my listings, and I think the markings can only be for Tasmania (3MD added later) They had the low 4 digit numbers around that 1910 time, and had a history of changing the way they marked, with the MD ownership markings being added later on. So I am thinking your feint 9 is possibly part of an upside down 6MD (there is a precedent here.!) with perhaps the 3MD being added later. The 4 digits suggest TAS. See the photo of my 12/1909 Sanderson which I have posted before, showing the 4 digit number with the 6MD added on, and upside down. And not far from 8/1910.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Agreed. Both bayonets have replacement grips, and have both seen a pretty tough life. But given the scarcity of these early Aussie bayonets I can't let them pass me by when they come up for a good price. I double checked the markings on the second bayonet and its definitely 1910 Wilkinson (and SOS marked). The cross guard marking is odd, but it looks to me like the '3MD' and the '1360' were stamped at different times - the '3' is a different size if nothing else... I don't have enough comparable bayonets to suggest a hypothesis for this, but maybe one day ill work it out! Strange no Wilkinson 1910s on your list - given the number of bayonets they produced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Apologies, I think my post above crossed with yours. Thats a very interesting suggestion. I've tried to take a better photo of the markings, but am struggling a little. The '9' could definitely be a '6' but its tough to see if it matches the other '6' in the serial number - the stampings are obviously on a curved surface so certain elements of the marking are missing. And you're right that the 4 digits would suggest Tasmania - and be within a sensible range of the serial number on the bayonet you've posted. Which is in wonderful condition by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 The 4 digit Tasmania numbers seem to have been originally (& heavily) stamped without the MD markings. I have seen ones without the MD and ones with seem to be added on. There are plenty of Wilkinson 1909 vintage bayonets marked to various States but yours is the first 1910 or later. My lists are only 'fledgling' scale but are quite handy for patterns. I just checked that Sanderson bayonet in the drawer and it does have one of the best blades I have seen on a used bayonet. It almost matches some of my mint condition hookies.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Absolutely lovely condition, and I like the 'almost' hooked quillon too. What are the markings on the pommel? Speaking of patterns, I have noticed recently a relatively large number of the early-Australian style P07 markings to South Australia ('SA') in on P07 bayonets which are still in unmodified hooked quillon form. Not sure why this is as I don't think I have ever seen a hooked quillon removed version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 ... First up is a P07 manufactured by Sanderson and dated '08 '09, with the sold out of service mark on the pommel and the State of Victoria 'V1108' marking on the crossguard. ... Nice set there! On this first one I do like these Sanderson's with the funny '09' marking! I have one which has what SS has confirmed is a 4 digit Tasmanian marking, and a scabbard that came with it that is certainly Tasmanian marked. This is shown at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189766&page=7#entry2226187, posts 154/155, 159 and 166. I also posted on that thread another example of a Sanderson with the funny '09'. I did wonder if a majority of these 1909 made ones went down under.... On the back-to-front scabbard, I have one like that and I have seen another recently with a HQ in it, so they are certainly around. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 S>S I just went and had another good look at this bayonet, and found that there is a '6' stamped on the metal on the inside of the hilt of the bayonet - photo below. I have never seen a stamping in this location before - perhaps a second stamping after the original '6' was stamped upside down? Anyway I suspect this lends your Tasmania theory even more weight. Quite happy if thats the case - never thought Id get my hands on an early Tasmanian P07! Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 21 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Hi Trajan, thanks for posting that link - despite having commented on that earlier post I had totally forgotten about it, so it was good to see your Tasmanian marked hooky again. A lovely untouched HQ bayonet! Funny about those reversed scabbards. First one Ive seen, but it sounds like there is a bit of a precedent there. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 December , 2015 Share Posted 21 December , 2015 Hi Trajan, thanks for posting that link - despite having commented on that earlier post I had totally forgotten about it, so it was good to see your Tasmanian marked hooky again. A lovely untouched HQ bayonet! Do I know that feeling - I likewise have got and seen too many of the damn things these days to remember what I have collected and what I have posted... I rely on SS to keep the data of these GB and all other ones he likes (and perhaps he will, in the manner of JMB, share with us one day the contents of his various data lists!) By which I mean I had quite forgotten - until I found the dealer's original e-mail while sorting - that I had posted this Victoria marked EFD one at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225837&page=2#entry2302204post 46... I was offered it but did not buy as in all honesty I have enough unit-marked HQ's as 'examplars' of the type - my real interest is the German Imperials! But interesting to see that this EFD one is a 1909 one also... A job lot sent to 'darn under'? Not that I have followed these Australian ones diligently but I am reminded of the large numbers of W/17 WFMauser S.98/05 n.A.'s to be found in Turkey and Syria - I jest not, 9 times out of 10 any 'butcher bayonet' found on sale in Turkey and in Syria was one of these. WFMauser did not make that many 98/05's in 1915 a few more in 1916, loads in 1917, and a small bunch in 1918 - but it looks like most of their 1917 production went to Turkey. So, with these relatively large numbers of 1909 dated P.1907's with Ozzie markings - was there a job lot that went 'darn under' that year or the year after? Perhaps SS will divulge more! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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