Khaki Posted 6 December , 2015 Share Posted 6 December , 2015 My understanding was that these rifles & bayonets were used in the African theatre during the great war, I have no images or data to support that but I do have a recent book purchase where the author was issued one during his basic training, I will try to locate the book & reference. A recent post in skindles requested an ID on a similar bayonet, and I post these photos partly in response to that and also as general interest in a bayonet that although long obsolete saw limited GW service. Any additional information or GW images appreciated. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2015 . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2015 to replace my 'shaky' photo above khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2015 My understanding was that these rifles & bayonets were used in the African theatre during the great war, I have no images or data to support that but I do have a recent book purchase where the author was issued one during his basic training, I will try to locate the book & reference. . khaki eureka, what a surprise, I found it straight away, the title is 'And all for what' by Cuddiford. reference on page eight to being issued ancient Martini Henry rifles and bayonets in Nigeria. If you have not read this book it is well worthwhile getting a copy, very interesting read. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 December , 2015 Share Posted 6 December , 2015 Don't know about Africa but the M-P rifle, the US-Turkish version of the M-H, was certainly in service in the GW. There is photographic evidence of socket bayonets being mounted on these just before the GW, but I have no seen any confirmation they were still being used any later. These ones are very rare - I have seen exactly one in six years or so of collecting here so I guess most were melted down later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 6 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2015 to replace my 'shaky' photo above khaki 1206151004.jpg Does anybody know what the R represents on this blade?? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 December , 2015 Share Posted 6 December , 2015 Khaki, can you provide the overall measurements and the interior diameter of the socket, to confirm it will fit the MH rifle.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Were the Martinis used in Africa in the original calibre or were they in .303? I would have thought mostly Martini-Enfields in .303 even in Nigeria but..... Martini-Enfield Carbines in .303 saw some limited use too (see photo of an ASC group) these were fitted with the Rigby nosecap and used P1888 bayonets. I freely admit that Martini socket bayonets make my head spin in terms of identifying them: IIRC there are Patt. 1853 bayonets bushed to fit the MH, Patt 1876 bayonets (these were quite a bit longer +/-5") made for M-H, and then Patt 1895 socket bayonets for the .303 Martin-Enfield rifles which I believe were conversions of the earlier Patt 1876 bayonets! I think it is also true to say that some of the early .303 Martinis (Martini-Metfords MkII) had a heavy barrel and therefore could only be fitted with the Patt 1893 sword bayonet. So what is shown in the original post? a Pattern 1853, Pattern 1876 or Pattern 1895? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 IIRC there are Patt. 1853 bayonets bushed to fit the MH, Patt 1876 bayonets (these were quite a bit longer +/-5") made for M-H, and then Patt 1895 socket bayonets for the .303 Martin-Enfield rifles ... So what is shown in the original post? a Pattern 1853, Pattern 1876 or Pattern 1895? You're right Chris, which is why I was asking Khaki for the measurements. It's either a Patt.1853 or Patt.1876 going by the socket ... it is NOT a Patt.1895 (different angle slot) Going solely by the type of the scabbard pictured, I am going to call it a P1876 socket bayonet (measurements will confirm) The '83 date stamped on the ricasso adds support. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 7 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Hello S>S, the bayonet is a nice snug fit on my Martini Henry (no loose wobbles) and locks in place nicely, it definitely doesn't fit my 1853 Enfield and is not bushed however I can still get the measurements if you wish. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Khaki, don't go to any bother on my account. From what you say, the reduced socket diameter to fit the M-H and lack of any bushing, confirm it as a newly made P1876 of 1883 vintage. Along with what Chris mentioned previously, I would doubt any original calibre Martini-Henry were still in use during the GW. However upgraded variants such as the M-E certainly were. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Khaki, just in case you don't know it there is quite an interesting page on the bayonets used with Martini-Henry rifles at: http://www.martinihenry.com/bayonets.htm I have no idea as to its accuracy or usefulness, but it was of interest to me for a field of pointed things I don't collect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8HANTS Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 IIRC non-jacketed bullets were banned under the 1899 Hague ratification of the St Peterborough convention of 1868. So Martini-Henry s in .455 were out, it is also why the little Martini .310 cadet should not have been used in the GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Khaki, This website has some information that may interest you: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Martini-Henry_Rifle The Treatise on Ammunition 1915 gives some detail of the M.-H cartridge including the packing. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 7 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Thanks Michael, that supports what I have been finding, on line references to the issue of MH rifles to native regiments, Rhodesia Native regiment is one that is specifically mentioned, and there is no confusion apparent between the MH and the M/Enfield. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 7 December , 2015 Share Posted 7 December , 2015 Khaki, if you have a copy of "British & Commonwealth Bayonets" you will find an Appendix in the back which shows a stocktake of all British Empire arms in 1905. All the different colonies are listed, showing the wide variety of rifles and carbines that were still on hand. Rhodesian inventory shows both .303 rifles and .45 M-H. If the obsolete M-H rifles together with ammunition were still on hand in the Police armouries when war broke out, then it may well have been pressed into service. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 9 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2015 Thanks again, I am sure that the upgrading of existing rifle inventories in Nigeria and elsewhere in Africa 1914/15 was a low priority and it was probably a case of make do with what you have, also bearing in mind that the Germans weren't the only enemy, as there were any number of animals that had a nasty habit of 'dining out' on a sentry who was less than alert. In such matters having the obsolete but heavy caliber MH cartridge may have been desirable. I don't have the bayonet book you mentioned, but thanks for the tip I will watch out for it. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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