Khaki Posted 18 November , 2015 Share Posted 18 November , 2015 khaki Sorry about lack of information, I have been trying to post these images for the last hour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2015 Share Posted 18 November , 2015 A nice V.C.SCHILLING? If so, maybe the one Carter recorded for Bavaria for 1914, or a second. Whatever, a rare one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 Thanks Julian, I am glad that there are experts like yourself on the forum, I don't know much about rarity, I sometimes think my computer is plotting against me as today my images are driving me crazy. These two images are a bit better, I appreciate your comments, I don't know whether you can make out the fraktur marks or what they tell you?, I will now make a point of digging out the scabbard and see what it has on it, if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 Voila/eureka, The fraktur mark on the flat of the throat of the scabbard matches that on the pommel of the bayonet, does that mean anything?? the leather is sound apart from a crease at the bottom and the sewing is tight, no other visible marks. thanks khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2015 Share Posted 18 November , 2015 Good question re: relationship between locket throat marks and what's on the pommel. I don't know of anyone who has searched that field. And I will have to check the few examples I have to see what there is (one day, I will have them all properly catalogued!). However, a German source I know of states that the production of bayonets and leather scabbards was separate, and that the Walz concern in Schleusingen (Suhl) met most of the demand for leather scabbards for Suhl and Solingen, but then adds that only Simson manufactured scabbard fittings in large quantities, along with Hubner in Suhl. So, that don't really get us anywhere! In all honesty I know of nothing that has been written about how these inspectors did their work - in Germany or the UK - and I wonder if anyone has researched it. However, I do know that originally at least (i.e., in the 19th century, when things were formalised), each weapons inspector had his own stamp using to the first letter of his surname, and so there will be stamps that have the same letter, but they will be different designs for different inspectors. Trajan PS: Thanks for the compliment, but I am by no means an expert - I just have a reasonable collection of both specimens and books, and an acute interest in the things that makes me follow up leads wherever I can! Now, if I could retire and indulge myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 Thanks again, Just a guess, based on imagination but I would have thought that there would have been a final inspection of union of bayonet & scabbard before being crated and shipped out (to ensure that both fit and close easily) to whatever destination? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 November , 2015 Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Khaki, thats a very nice bayonet and one of the last of these S98 that were made in 1914. It is the L cypher of King Ludwig III that tells us it was originally Bavarian issue. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Thanks S>S. I appreciate the information, apart from being a quillback, that's all I knew, it had been on the wall for years without close examination. Its always nice to know more details of it's history. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Good question re: relationship between locket throat marks and what's on the pommel. I don't know of anyone who has searched that field. And I will have to check the few examples I have to see what there is (one day, I will have them all properly catalogued!). However, a German source I know of states that the production of bayonets and leather scabbards was separate, and that the Walz concern in Schleusingen (Suhl) met most of the demand for leather scabbards for Suhl and Solingen, but then adds that only Simson manufactured scabbard fittings in large quantities, along with Hubner in Suhl. So, that don't really get us anywhere! In all honesty I know of nothing that has been written about how these inspectors did their work - in Germany or the UK - and I wonder if anyone has researched it. However, I do know that originally at least (i.e., in the 19th century, when things were formalised), each weapons inspector had his own stamp using to the first letter of his surname, and so there will be stamps that have the same letter, but they will be different designs for different inspectors. Trajan PS: Thanks for the compliment, but I am by no means an expert - I just have a reasonable collection of both specimens and books, and an acute interest in the things that makes me follow up leads wherever I can! Now, if I could retire and indulge myself... - I just have a reasonable collection of both specimens and books, and an acute interest in the things that makes me follow up leads wherever I can! Now, if I could retire and indulge myself... If there's one thing I don't have, it's a collection of bayonet books that gives me data on production as well as identification photographs etc, any recommendations appreciated thanks khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 November , 2015 Share Posted 19 November , 2015 ... Its always nice to know more details of it's history. ... Well, for starters this was the first bayonet produced with the Mauser-patented under-the-barrel bayonet design, of 1895, lacking a muzzle-ring, as this affected barrel oscillation, and relying entirely on the bayonet lug and mortise slot to attach it to the rifle, and full-scale production began in 1899. The extreme length adopted for this was so that when attached to a Gew.98 it closely matched the equally extreme length of the French 'Lebel' rifle with bayonet attached. However, use in the field against the Boxers in 1900 revealed that the bayonet had limited penetrating power and might even bend when used against somebody wearing thick clothing... But, the Prussian High Command had committed itself already to equip all the German armies with this rifle and bayonet by 1905, although in the event this was not done until 1907... So, contracts having been issued for its mass-production, they went ahead with it, and it was only after its widespread use in the field in August 1914 revealed these problems on a large scale that production was halted and the decision was made to replace it with the S.98/05. Bavaria adopted the Gew.98 and this bayonet in 1903, most of the bayonets being made by Haenel and Schilling, with a few extra by Coppel. As SS has already noted, 1914 is a very late date for yours, most of the Bavarian S.98 having been made between 1903-1908, but both Schilling and Haenel continued to make a few after then and up to 1914. I only have one Bavarian example of these, a G.C.HAENEL O/07 - for Otto, king of Bavaria 1886-1913. ... If there's one thing I don't have, it's a collection of bayonet books that gives me data on production as well as identification photographs etc, Well, almost all that I have written above comes from vol.2 of the best-ever series on German bayonets, A.J.Carter's German Bayonets, vols 1-4. Very difficult to get hold of and expensive when they appear (some full sets have been seen on Abe), but really well worth the investment - but be aware that from my experience, the photographs in the 2nd edition of the various volumes is not up to the standard of the 1st edition. There is not a lot on production methods, but the history of each type, the years of production, and known makers and unit-markings, are given, and although they could do with up-dating, they are still fundamental for anyone working with German Imperials. Carter aside, for a good introduction to variants and maker's- and some unit-markings, there is Roy William's The Collectors Book of German Bayonets, vols 1 and 2, which are more photographic references than what Carter provides. Finally, John Walter's The German Bayonet remains as a fundamental introduction to the subject. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Excellent material, thank you for the research and advice. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 19 November , 2015 Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Very nice piece. The '14 dated ones are one of the toughest years to find. According to the Collectors Book of German Bayonets part 1 by Roy Williams this style of gothic K fraktur on your bayonet was used by the Bavarians. I looked through my collection of 60 odd bayonets and only two had this style K and both were Bavarian. A nice inexpensive basic reference book (around $25) for German bayonets and a few swords as well is German Sidearms and Bayonets by Klaus Lubbe. It also lists pricing for each bayonet which is handy (some prices are now somewhat outdated though) If you plan to focus on Imperial German than like Julian says the Carter and Williams books are a must have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 19 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Thanks motojosh and Trajan, Boy, you are not kidding Trajan about an expensive book, I may have to think about that one, meanwhile the other book by Williams might be suitable for my needs. I have never seen a copy so I will rely on these recommendations. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 November , 2015 Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Thanks motojosh and Trajan, Boy, you are not kidding Trajan about an expensive book, I may have to think about that one, meanwhile the other book by Williams might be suitable for my needs. I have never seen a copy so I will rely on these recommendations. khaki True, too true, on the cost of Carter... It took me about two years to get the set, vol 1 on the 98/05 and 98/02 being the easiest to find. So, each one worked out at a really rare bayonet a time, but honestly well worth the buy. Williams is fantastic for the photographs, but has less on the history. And as Josh says, the Lubbe book is a nice buy. But for history and use, then Carter wins hands down. Nighty-night - boys are calling! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 20 November , 2015 Share Posted 20 November , 2015 Julian, Just as a matter of interest I have checked a couple of my bayonets with leather scabbards. The first - an S98/05 aA made by Simpson & Co and marked W10 with matching regimental markings - has five inspector's marks on the bayonet and four on the scabbard. All match. The second - a Transitional S98/05 made by Alex Coppel and marked W15 - has eight inspector's marks on the bayonet (keen inspector!) and four on the scabbard. Again they all match. On a Mauser made bayonet with metal scabbard and marked W16 I can find no inspector's marks on the scabbard. I suppose one problem with your study of inspectors' marks will be that uite a lot of bayonets are no longer paired with their original scabbard. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 November , 2015 Share Posted 20 November , 2015 ... The fraktur mark on the flat of the throat of the scabbard matches that on the pommel of the bayonet, does that mean anything?? ... Just as a matter of interest I have checked a couple of my bayonets with leather scabbards. ... five inspector's marks on the bayonet and four on the scabbard. All match.... It is interesting to learn of these matching frakturs on bayonets and scabbards as I have seen 98/05's with different frakturs on the pommel from what is on the blade spine! From what you two gentlemen have I suppose the inspector must have done the lots - screws and washers, the lot, and at that up to and beyond when the GW started, as I have a 'late' one somewhere with fraktur-marked screws and washers... Yes, the problem will be in any long-term analysis along these lines is that scabbards get swopped around... I have done it myself - but only with Waffenfabrik-marked ones when they come with another make to pass on to my scabbard-less Waffenfabrik collection. I'll try to look at these tonight, to see what there is. Incidentally, I have this long-term and frequently put-off plan to do a survey of the Waffenfabrik 98/05 from the point of view of a 'Quality Control' assessment along the same lines as what JMB is doing for the P.1907's. I chose these ones partly because I have so many of them but also because I have the basic production details for their manufacture 1916-1918. It will be interesting to see if the standards vary by much - the ones I have checked certainly don't match the official specifications! What I don't have, though, is a Waffenfabrik W/16 or W/18, as most of these Waffenfabriks came to Turkey in 1917, so at some point I'll be asking you, please, for the weight and blade measurements of your W/16 example. Best, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 20 November , 2015 Share Posted 20 November , 2015 Julian, You are correct - the Alex Coppel in my collection has the screws and washers marked. I'm afraid my Waffenfabrik W16 is a S98/05 S.abg so not much use for weight and blade measurements. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 November , 2015 Share Posted 20 November , 2015 Hello Michael, it's a pity for my purposes about that W/16 being an abs, but it's a very nice thing for you to have as they are harder to come by than intact sawbacks! Now, we mustn't go off topic too much from Khaki's nice S.98 but one of the good things about this forum is the way it gets people asking questions about things while comparing items in their own collections - and then discovering anomalies and sharing such news. So, just to let you know that while having a quick look through my accessible 98's and 98/05's and heir scabbards on this matter of matching inspector markings, I discovered a DURKOPP W/16 98/05 n.A. with what I think can only be filed-down high ears... Hmmmm.... On the other hand, I have not yet found an inspector's mark on a Waffenfabrik scabbard. Haven't looked much further yet but I do have a STAHLBLUME 98/05 n.A. with a Stahlblume scabbard (numbered on the back), and the frakturs on bayonet and scabbard look to be different - but no proof, of course, that the two are the same vintage even if they are from the same maker, never mind proof that they belonged together when issued. With the boys around I can't properly check and photograph either issue right now and I will try to do so tomorrow... Off-hand, I did hear once that there is a Russian book on the 98 and 98/05's that does examine and catalogue fraktur markings by makers and type but I never followed up on that lead. It struck me as the sort of thing that only an archaeologist cum numismatist would do with mint marks and the like... That aside, well, my Russian is / was enough to get by for the bare necessities when shopping while I was working on a project in the Ukraine - but that's it! Best, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 November , 2015 Share Posted 20 November , 2015 Getting back to the S98 'quillback', here is one of mine from near the other end of the production range. One of the earlier models with the one-piece timber grip (W01) Apart from the neatly stamped regimental marking, the other interesting thing about this example is that it has been sharpened, a case of "sharpening for mobilisation". Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 November , 2015 Share Posted 21 November , 2015 'Tis indeed a nice one SS! FYI, in case you are interested, then based on recorded examples, 1900-1901 were the peak years at Erfurt for S.98 production (of all types, both a.A and n.A.), and I have noted a surprising number of S.98 a.A. that have survived with intact grips. Also, FYI, there is another Erfurt W/01 example on record for the I.R. Nr. 161, '161.R.6.183', and a Haenel, the same year, '161.R.8.49'. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 November , 2015 Share Posted 21 November , 2015 This is the only example I have of an S.98 metal scabbard and it came with this HAENEL S.98 n.A,, O/07, and also this frog, which doesn't look that German as it lacks rivets... Neither bayonet nor scabbard are unit-marked, unfortunately. However, no less than seven visible frakturs on the bayonet! This is an example of Carter's Type 3, and although none of these metal scabbards are dated, he believed them to be a war time development. I don't know of anything to contradict that view, and its seems reasonable, assuming that leather was cheap in pre-GW days. However, already by January 1915, Erfurt had received permission to make steel scabbards for the S.98/05 if leather scabbards could not bought at an acceptable price, and later war time orders for metal scabbards for the S.98/05 were calculated as being 1.40 marks cheaper than leather ones - although that was calculated on the high war-time prices of leather. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 24 November , 2015 Share Posted 24 November , 2015 That is an extremely nice s98 Trajan. I really like the look of those metal s98 scabbards, but they are very difficult to come by. I've recently acquired a few more s98s and now have three marked to the 5th Bavarian IR - Ill post some shots shortly. Between work and kids I have about 2 minutes a day to myself these days so time on the forum is strictly limited! Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 November , 2015 Share Posted 24 November , 2015 That is an extremely nice s98 Trajan. I really like the look of those metal s98 scabbards, but they are very difficult to come by. ... Between work and kids I have about 2 minutes a day to myself these days so time on the forum is strictly limited ... Thanks Jonathan! And I do understand that thing about kids and work getting in the way... Homewise, my 'office' area is in the same alcove as their 'homework and computer' area, their and my tables being end to end, which puts a limit on what I can have out for inspection. There again, they have got used to seeing bayonets and know not to touch them - and at least up to now have never broken that rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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