trajan Posted 15 November , 2015 Share Posted 15 November , 2015 I have just been looking more closely at a recent find of mine, a rather battered SIMSON & Co W/15 98/05 a.A. (which came in a modern replica scabbard!!!), and was pleased to discover two new markings on this that I was missing in my collection of these bayonets. The first is a small quillon mark, a 'serial' number, '380'. I have seen examples of these before - see, e.g., Williams vol 1, p.446, where he presents two, one certainly on a Bavarian issue bayonet, and - IIRC - some others have been shown on GBF, which I'll try to find... However, nobody seems to know what they are... My guess? Perhaps an odd Bavarian unit specific numbering system? Perhaps even post WW1? The other nice mark for me was a crowned 'RC' mark between the frakturs on the pommel. This is a mystery mark... The general belief is that it is the mark of the 'Revision Controlle', the guys who - as I understand it - checked bayonets and other material that had been rejected as unsuitable for service use by the official inspector at the factory where it was made. But as Carter vol 1, 37, pointed out, it seems rather odd that the majority of these marks are found on Simson products that don't seem to have any obvious problems; and, more tellingly, perhaps, although these marks are sometimes found on the blade spine, they, like those found on the pommel, are neatly positioned within the general marking sequence, as if a space was left for them to be inserted... See, e.g., Williams vol 1, p. 418 and 421. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 November , 2015 Share Posted 15 November , 2015 Hello Julian, interesting photo, I used the zoom on the quillion and from all sizes it looks to me to be 3 8 U rather than 3 8 0. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 18 November , 2015 Share Posted 18 November , 2015 The first is a small quillon mark, a 'serial' number, '380'. 9805 quillonA.jpg I have seen examples of these before - see, e.g., Williams vol 1, p.446, where he presents two, one certainly on a Bavarian issue bayonet, and - IIRC - some others have been shown on GBF, which I'll try to find... However, nobody seems to know what they are... My guess? Perhaps an odd Bavarian unit specific numbering system? Perhaps even post WW1? I think this may be the thread you’re looking for: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?387491-4-digit-serial-(-)-markings-on-a-Mauser-98-05-bayonet&highlight=bavarian “Perhaps an odd Bavarian unit specific numbering system” That would be my guess as well. Bavarian 71/84 will sometimes have similar type numbers on the cross guard. Even with the Prussian cypher on yours it may have been Bavarian used as I’ve seen a few W14 & W15 bayonets marked to Bavarian units. Here’s a W15 98/05 with B.1.J.E unit marking and quillon number: http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5961 I would expect that if these quillon numbers were added post war the original unit marking would be cancelled out and there would be some of the post war German modifications. The other nice mark for me was a crowned 'RC' mark between the frakturs on the pommel. 9805 rc aA.jpg This is a mystery mark... The general belief is that it is the mark of the 'Revision Controlle', the guys who - as I understand it - checked bayonets and other material that had been rejected as unsuitable for service use by the official inspector at the factory where it was made. But as Carter vol 1, 37, pointed out, it seems rather odd that the majority of these marks are found on Simson products that don't seem to have any obvious problems; and, more tellingly, perhaps, although these marks are sometimes found on the blade spine, they, like those found on the pommel, are neatly positioned within the general marking sequence, as if a space was left for them to be inserted... See, e.g., Williams vol 1, p. 418 and 421. Trajan The RC mark seems to be pretty commonly found on Erfurt produced items as well. These are the pieces I’ve got with it: Erfurt 84/98nA w15 (rc on blade spine) Amberg KS98 w14 (rc on blade spine) WKC S98nA L14 (rc on pommel) Erfurt 1918 p08 luger (rc on receiver) Discussion related to the RC markings here: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?3683-A-DWM-P08-with-Crown-RC-Marking&s=c6858a61833efab13c20bd3d216fb78f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 ... I used the zoom on the quillion and from all sizes it looks to me to be 3 8 U rather than 3 8 0. ... Possible, but the one's that William's shows are certainly numbers as are the others I remember (see now below). So. I'll go for numbers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 ... I think this may be the thread you’re looking for: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?387491-4-digit-serial-(-)-markings-on-a-Mauser-98-05-bayonet&highlight=bavarian ... Almost but not quite! That thread was mainly concerned with crossguard markings: the thread I remembered had a bayonet marked on the tip of the quillon like mine, and I remember casting doubt on it being a GW mark as I had (at the time) never seen anything like it before... On the other hand that thread you suggested did have a clear example of one of these quillon-tip marks - the number '542' but facing outwards, not inwards as with mine shown on post no. 3 there. ... The RC mark seems to be pretty commonly found on Erfurt produced items as well. ... Discussion related to the RC markings here: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?3683-A-DWM-P08-with-Crown-RC-Marking&s=c6858a61833efab13c20bd3d216fb78f That's useful to know about and that's a useful link to have! I don't have any of the Luger books, but I'll double-check what (if anything) Goertz says anything in his Handbuch which I do have it. So, in short, if the 1882 revolver inspection manual indicates that a crowned RC mark indicates a part that has been submitted to the inspection's supervisor or his deputy for review and then passed for use. If, as Carter notes, there are many more SIMSON bayonets around with this mark than are found for other makers it certainly suggests a there was a rather officious chappie at work there! As it is, I do know of a document of early 1917 referring to a complaint of Fichtel & Sachs, after some of their bayonets were rejected by Bavaria, that the Bavarian inspection office was much stricter than the Prussians in Solingen. ... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2015 Carter vol II, p.62, has something on the matter of the RC, referring back to Goertz and accepting his evidence, suggesting also that a job lot of SIMSON ones were initially rejected... As my first example, a learning curve here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsparso Posted 24 November , 2015 Share Posted 24 November , 2015 I had a numbers matching Erfurt P08 where nearly every component was Crown/RC marked, common on Lugers of the era. As stated, used to indicate, (at least for firearms), a rejected component reinspected and passed for use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2015 I had a numbers matching Erfurt P08 where nearly every component was Crown/RC marked, common on Lugers of the era. ... This is what I had heard, that the markings are common on Lugers and the like... Over-zealous inspectors? I can imagine, though, that standards and expectations and inspections would be more rigourous on firearms than on bayonets... Anyway, I'll try and look out a document that - IIRC - basically says that if the bayonet fits, then pass it for service use! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsparso Posted 24 November , 2015 Share Posted 24 November , 2015 My understanding, (garnered from participating on some Liger specific forums), is that generally they were parts rejected because of cosmetic defects, or non critical deviations from tolerance requirements. On the P08 I mentioned, there appeared to be a small cosmetic defect on the frame and takedown lever. Comparing the other components to non RC marked equivalents I had, I can only assume the remainder were tolerance issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2015 Well here is another of these odd quillon serial-marked 98/05's that has come my way. This one is a 98/05 a.A., L/15, obvs. AMBERG. rev. (CROSSED KEYS) / F.HERDER A.SN / SOLINGEN, which came with a nice very slightly-shrunken leather scabbard with good fraktur marks on the metal parts. The number on this one is '1287'. Trajan EDIT; note that these numbers seem to come in odd ways, in the sense that some are on the obvs. and some of the rev. of the quillon terminal, and note that some come other way around, figures down and figures up from the quillon. Also a quick reminder (for what it is worth) that this is a Bavarian one - L/15.., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2015 One thing of interest about this one, which I was waiting for somebody to comment on, is the round clearance hole... Working from memory I think that this is unique to F.Herder 98/05's, but IIRC, they are found on some of 84/98's by one of the early makers - I think Moeve? In fact I think I have one of these back in the UK... Trajan EDIT: Just checked back and the one with the quillon marking shown on GBF is also an L/15 Amberg / F.Herder & Sons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 January , 2016 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2016 I have just been looking more closely at a recent find of mine, a rather battered SIMSON & Co W/15 98/05 a.A. .... The other nice mark for me was a crowned 'RC' mark between the frakturs on the pommel. ... This ... is the mark of the 'Revision Controlle', ... as Carter vol 1, 37, pointed out, it seems rather odd that the majority of these marks are found on Simson products that don't seem to have any obvious problems... Well, look what Santa brought me as a late present: a W/16 SIMSON & Co / SUHL 98/05 n.A. with - yes, you guessed, a RC mark between the frakturs on the pommel and one on the spine above the fraktur mark there. This one is a bit spotty, so it needs a clean (and a bright clear day!) before photographing, but looks to have the same fraktur-mark on some and so probably all the screw-bolts and press-stud, and outer edge of the crossguard as well, so it's just like the one above... It came in a scabbard with a different fraktur mark from those on the bayonet, and a number stamped on the reverse of the final - '19'. The bayonet has also been seriously sharpened and it was blued, and as it came in an unmarked but WW2 type frog, with the hilt-strap cut off, alas, that clearly belongs to the scabbard (spot the rust traces!), then I suspect WW2 usage. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 March , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2016 Just picked up another of these quillon-marked ones. A Deutsche-maschinenfabrik, W/15 98/05 n.A., numbered 6550... And numbered V 761 on the obverse ricasso! This has been bu**ered about though: the reverse side screwbolts are slotted as is the press-stud... Needs a clean also... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 12 March , 2016 Share Posted 12 March , 2016 Pics please Julian ☺, will check my 98/05s for any other strange markings later today, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 12 March , 2016 Share Posted 12 March , 2016 Just picked up another of these quillon-marked ones. A Deutsche-maschinenfabrik, W/15 98/05 n.A., numbered 6550... And numbered V 761 on the obverse ricasso! This has been bu**ered about though: the reverse side screwbolts are slotted as is the press-stud... Needs a clean also... Trajan Julian, By coincidence, I recently acquired an s98/05 n.A. by the same manufacturer. Attached are several photos which I think are self-explanatory. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 April , 2016 By coincidence, I recently acquired an s98/05 n.A. by the same manufacturer. Attached are several photos which I think are self-explanatory. Apologies for this late response - something called pressure of work intervened! That IS an odd marking, Not seen one like that before but I am new to this field so who knows? Certainly an odd one though. Here are the photographs of my poor Deutsche-Maschinenfabrik, W/15 98/05 n.A., numbered 6550. Very heavily blued and along with the slotted screws and the slotted press-stud, evidently a refurbishment in Weimar or later times. The numbers on the quillon are, well, unusual, but I have and know of other examples; the one on the ricasso though is new to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 April , 2016 Author Share Posted 29 April , 2016 And lo and behold - another ricasso-marked one... This has been offered to me, and politely rejected at the price requested, for obvious reasons, although I do feel like crying as it is a Waffenfabrik 1915 and I am missing exactly that year and have been looking for one for sometime now... But, blued and narrowed? And look at the crossguard! On the other hand, interesting because of the ricasso number - 3725. I now do know of others numbered here but no, I have not found any explanation for these: something I will research when retirement comes along (a long way to go as my youngest is only 7... ) Trajan PS: Yes, I have been quiet on the bayonet front - that damnable thing called work - but I have a few more German Imperials to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 2 May , 2016 Share Posted 2 May , 2016 Julian, Many thanks for the above posts; interesting, although a shame we are no nearer a full explanation. However, here is another example made by P.D. Luneschloss, Solingen and marked W18 and numbered 4697 or 4691. Hope work isn't too onerous! Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2016 Julian, Many thanks for the above posts; interesting, although a shame we are no nearer a full explanation. However, here is another example made by P.D. Luneschloss, Solingen and marked W18 and numbered 4697 or 4691. Hope work isn't too onerous! Michael. A nice looking one there! I can?'to help but think Bavarian or weimar... As for work well exam fortnight now started so freeish - until the dreaded marking starts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 2 May , 2016 Share Posted 2 May , 2016 Julian, If Bavarian I wonder why so many have the Prussian "W" cypher and if Weimar why aren't more marked "1920" or "1921"? An interesting research project for you. Although somewhat off topic, and mostly for your records, I attach a couple of photos of a recent acquisition, an S 98/05 nA S.abg made by Pack Ohliger & Co. Solingen marked W17. Note the inspector's mark where the saw-back has been removed. I can't trace that Carter mentions any S 98/05 nA S made by that firm in 1917. Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 May , 2016 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2016 If Bavarian I wonder why so many have the Prussian "W" cypher and if Weimar why aren't more marked "1920" or "1921"? An interesting research project for you. ... an S 98/05 nA S.abg made by Pack Ohliger & Co. Solingen marked W17. Note the inspector's mark where the saw-back has been removed. I can't trace that Carter mentions any S 98/05 nA S made by that firm in 1917. ... Michael, Although there are bayonets marked 'L' for Ludwig of Bavaria, as I understand it, Prussia insisted on centralising the ordering of all bayonets for all States with a Prussian War Ministry Decree issued 2 March 1915 (Bayer. KA, FZM 2881), and although I cannot remember where now (after several months of being focussed on other things!), I am certain that I have seen bayonets with a 'W' that were unit-marked to Bavarian units. As for the lack of a '1920' stamp, well, I do recall for certain that there are some around with evidence of later use that don't have these 1920 marks either - e.g., with blued-blades; refitted grips; slotted press-stud; and - IIRC - some even marked to the Reich Lufts Ministerium and/or Lufwaffe and/or Weimar Police units. I have always assumed that examples like this were armoury stocks, held in reserve, the '1920' marked ones being for issue. That Pack & Ohliger of yours is an interesting one. As you doubtless know this is not an especially common maker, and 1916 does seem to have been their 'sawback' year: as it was, incidentally, for many makers. Quite why this was so I have no idea, but one German document reveals that by 31 March 1918, almost 20% of the 98/05's supplied to Saxony were sawback versions, so more than twice the 'official' 6% or so of regulation issue... Be that as it may, there is a nice example of one of these P&O 1916 issues at: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imperial-germany-austro-hungary/my-1916-s98-05-na-sawback-butcher-bayonet-382883/ As for its 'issue / inspection' date, hmmm... Well - as you know, but newcomers might not, so just for their information - as the production of sawbacks was formally ended in August 1917 (Bavaria, though, had suspended ordering these on 25 04 1917), It could be an early 1917 product, or a 1916 one that was inspected in 1917! I have seen a Waffenfabrik that was spine-marked (19)18, which is best explained as being one that was made earlier and was hanging about for stamping and issue in 1918, so it is possible that is what you have here, something made the year before its inspection and issue. Note, by the way, that sawbacks were not banned totally from service use, only from service use in the front-line. There is a Prussian decree of 3 December 1917 (HstA Segt., M 24, 50) which, as I understand it, authorised the issue of sawback bayonets to garrison troops and prison camp guards, and also - I think - to training units, who were then supposed to hand them in for non-sawbacks before moving up to the front. This probably explains the 1918 example I saw. Whatever, what you have there is certainly a rare find - and even nicer to have that certifying stamp after the sawback was removed! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now