Turkish Officer

[derekb]

Good Evening,

I am not sure where to post this request, attached is a photograph of a Turkish officer who appears to be wearing an Iron Cross Second Class, a Harp Madalyası or Eiserner Halbmond (Galipolli Star) together with possibly a Wound Badge.

Also can anyone help with the writing on the back of the photo.

Thanks and regards,

Derek.

[derekb]

OOPS!!! not sure what happened with the phortos but here they are.

Derek.

[The Prussian]

Hello!

Do you have a close-up, please?

I think, the wounded badge would be on the wrong side.

[derekb]

Hello!

Do you have a close-up, please?

I think, the wounded badge would be on the wrong side.

I will try and get a close up this evening.

Derek.

[trajan]

The Harp Madalyasi was a general war medal, with bars on the ribbon to indicate the action it was earned in - it was not for Gallipoli alone, which is why one can see photographs of Turkish soldiers with two of these medals. Bars were awarded for these campaigns: Suez Canal; Galipoli; Kut; Palestine; and Iraq. What is odd is that he has his on the wrong side - it should be on the left...

I don't think the other one is a German 'Wound badge' - it looks to be oval.

I almost certainly won't be able to help with the Osmanlaca writing, but a larger photograph would help...!!!

Trajan

[derekb]

Larger photo of the reverse

Close up of the decorations

[The Prussian]

Maybe it´s the badge of the XV.Corps?

[derekb]

It certainly looks like.

D

[derekb]

Hi Everyone,

After three years plus, I have finally been given a part translation of the writing on the back of this photograph by a very generous gentleman who was helped by two other gentlemen from Strasbourg, hopefully it will be of interest.

The Right hand side says; 

Hergele Cevdet´e takdim  

(Presented to Hergele Cevdet)

 

The Left hand side says; - 1st Line; 

861/3 ve 858/4 makinelei tüfenk bölük kumandanı M(ülâzim-i) ….(?)

 

(Commander of the 861/3 and 858/4 machine gun company Second lieutenant…?)

 

The 2nd Line;

Xxxxxxx? - (Either a name or some expression…)

 

The3rd Line;

 Signature - (Mehmed ??)

 

The Badge is that of the XVth Army Corps(Thanks to The Prussian), with the following inscriptions.

 

Top Line;  

XV. Kais[erliches] Osm[anisches] Armeekorps

(Kaiser’s Ottoman Army Corps)

 

On beşinci Kol Ordu-yı Hümayun

(15th Imperial Ottoman Army Corps)

Note; - Good quality divani script, so probably the work of a Turk.

 

Bottom Line; 

Galiçya hâtıra-i harbi

(Souvenir of the war in Galicia)

 

Some of these badges were made by; Atelier G Gurschner Wien VII/I

 

Regards,

Derek.

 

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Derek,

Your perserverance paid off. Good work!

I attach a portrait of a German Pioneer officer (Reinicke) in Turkish service.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[derekb]

Thanks Kim, that’s a great photograph.

D.

[The Prussian]

Oh yes. Phantastic photo and very good research for the ottoman script!

[Guest]

Mates

 

I din't read Georg's unit?

 

Is that his unit in Palestine or Ottoman Service?

 

My google translation said;

 

Reinicke Georg    Capt    Chief of Staff  21st abteilung sturm wesen im grossen hauptquartier (21 Department of storms in the main headquarters) possibly Pioneer 
 

 

S.B

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

I would translate the caption to the portrait as follows: 

'George Reinicke (pron. Rine-ee-car), shown as a Hauptmann (Captain) and Chief of Staff in the 21st Department of Attack/Assault, in the principle (main) Headquarters, Turkey.'

Voila!

Reinicke was a well-educated man, qualified as an engineer, as well as having had wartime service with the Pioneers. He became a general in the Second War and was a successful engineer and businessman, in post-1945 West Germany.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Guest]

Kim,

 

Thanks mate.

 

Yes its the 21st abteilung .

 

Not a unit in the Palestine area or that I can find anywhere in the Ottoman empire?

 

I did think it maybe the Ottoman 21st Corps at Aydin, which shows Gallipoli Area: 10/16 - 4/17 (coastal defence south of Izmir)
 

The clostest I can find to the Germans is;

 

Effnert Alexander    Capt to Maj Eng    Istihkam Taburlari Komutani Çanakkale ve Filistin'de Istihkam birli. Kom (Engineer Bn Commandant Çanakkale and Isthkam in Palestine) supported Naval MG Sects Marine-Landungsabteilung at Gallipoli         from Pnr Bn No 21 
 

I have around 40 Engineers officers with Ottoman formations but again I can never confirm all that served there?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 8 March , 2019 by stevebecker

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

Thanks for that.

I have re-read the relevant passage in Reinicke's book "Generalleutnant Georg Reinicke" (Flechsig, 2018), put together by his son.

He taught himself Turkish, emulating the old Moltke, and this was noticed by a senior officer. This started a succession of military appointments, by which he ended up as a 23 year-old junior staff officer ('Stabschef in der 21. Abteilung') in Konstantinopel (Istanbul) - training a battalion of Turks as "storm troops" after the German manner.

This battalion was used for ceremonial parades (inspected by Kaiser Karl von Oesterreich), but also in operations on the 'Pakart front' and 'Aleppo' - whereby Reinicke, who remained in Konstantinopel, received Turkish decorations. The chapter "Turkey" is kept fairly vague, therefore I am unable to offer more; much less names of his German officer colleagues (one of whom is photographed with him).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Guest]

Kim,

 

Interesting mate, this unit has a number of photos of it, which made us think these were common units in the Ottoman Army, when they were not.

 

While during 1918 most Divisions, Corps, and some Armies, formed these Storm/Attack units called Hucum taburu (Assault Battalion) and a TOO was issued of there strength states, these were never fully formed.

 

Divisions formed storm companies, and Corps formed storm Bn's

 

So far only the 15th Corps Storm unit was known to be used in battle and it was destoryed by the 3rd ALH Bde in late 1917.

 

If they were used else where there effect was mimimal?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

If their effect was minimal? Yes, probably.

Gallipoli was a disaster for the attacking force, but the Turks subsequently had their share of disasters, of course (Suez comes immediately to mind).

The whole theatre of war was regarded as a Sideshow, anyway, France being the main (war-winning) concern. Moreover, the Sideshows latterly served to produce major political headaches, from which the World continues to suffer...

I much admire your ALH documentation. Well done! (My great-uncle was KiA Palestine, 14 Jul 1918, with 1 ALH: Pte (Tpr) Thomas Francis Lindsay.)

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Guest]

Kim,

 

No worries, here's something I wrote about this unit;

 

"We always look at the 15th Corps storm unit, while the others attack/storm units are often over looked.

A captured Order gives us that by late 1917 each Corps & Div to form - Attack/Storm Bn's and Co's.

These were to be formed as such;

Attack/storm Bn - HQ Co + 2xStorm Co's (14x LMGs) + 1xMG Co (6xMGs) + 1xMinenwefer Co + 1xEng Co (total 25 officers 888 men) - 

attack/storm Co's 1xCo + MG Sect (3x LMGs) & Eng Sect (7 officers 318 men) 

reported steel helmets issued but worn only on patrols or operations

Each Division formed their own Attack/Storm Companies drawn up of the best men in the Division.

While Attack/Storm Bns were made up from the same sources.

Clearly the total strengths were never achived both in men and equiptment.

some I have on record;

Comp Div attack/Storm Co (140 men) 

20th Div attack/storm Co (70 men) 

26th Div attack/storm Co (100 men) 

20th Corps attack/storm Bn (400 men)

4th Army 1st Attack/storm Bn (150 men 4xMGs)

7th Army attack/storm Bn (150 men 4 MG's) 

8th Army attack/storm Bn (200 men 4xMGs) 

I have found attack/Storm Bn's and Co's in formations in Palestine and Mesopotamia, but Have seen no Order of battles for the Caucasus during this time to confirm if they also formed these there?

The (LMG) Light Machine guns, are the new Bergman LMG, while the Heavy Maxim still formed the main weapon."

 

Cheers

S.B

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Steve,

Interesting. Thanks for that.

Hopefully your treasure trove of specialised information will be handed on for future Aussie historians...?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

PS: Not ALH, but 53 Bn in France: MC to Coy Cdr W. F. Lindsay (my grandfather). Peronne was a VC action - Pte Currey, 53 Bn AIF.

[trajan]

On 12/11/2015 at 21:11, The Prussian said:

Maybe it´s the badge of the XV.Corps?

 

 

On 07/03/2019 at 15:31, derekb said:

Hi Everyone,

After three years plus, I have finally been given a part translation of the writing on the back of this photograph by a very generous gentleman who was helped by two other gentlemen from Strasbourg, hopefully it will be of interest.

 

On 07/03/2019 at 16:31, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Derek,

Your perserverance paid off. Good work!

 

Somehow I missed these - well done everbody - you too Steve (GWF only allows links to 3 posts!).

 

Now all I need is somebody to spot a photograph of somebody with this litle lot at: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/249482-medals-of-the-central-powers/page/11/ post 262 etc. 

[Guest]

Mate,

 

As far as I can find he was the MG officer of one of the six MG Companies with the 15th Corps.

 

Each Regt of the 19th and 20th Div's was given a MG Company when sent to the Galicia Front to help the Austrians and Germans fight the Russians.

 

Kemal's old Div 19th Div LtCol Mehmet Sefik (Aker) Bey 8-15 to 10-16    and  Col Sedat Bey (Dogruer) 10-16

1-3/57th Regt - 57th MG Co                                    1-3/72nd Regt (arab) - 72nd MG Co                                           1-3/77th Regt (arab) (new 77th MG Co)

 

The Arabs were replaced by Anatonlians and the forth Bn's were reformed.

 

20th Div LtCol Yasin Hilmi Bey 1915 to 7-18       

 

1-3/61st Regt                                1-3/62nd Regt                                    1-3/63rd Regt all formed new MG Co's

 

reported all Regts in Galicia were 4xBns (between Aug to Sept 1916 15th Corps units given 16 guns 30 Russian MGs & 72 German LMGs)

 

Ottoman MG Co's had only 4 MGs  per Company at that time, and the Germans needed to punch up there firepower, thus the increase of Guns and MG's

 

Derek mentions that he was from;

 

The Left hand side says; - 1st Line; 

861/3 ve 858/4 makinelei tüfenk bölük kumandanı M(ülâzim-i) ….(?)

(Commander of the 861/3 and 858/4 machine gun company Second lieutenant…?)

 

These MG companies didn't exist in the Ottoman Army. so was the translation correct?

 

As the 15th Corps didn't have a Corps MG Co these must come from one of the Regt MG Co's as shown above?

 

Possibly 61st MG Co? 

 

While its possible a second Lt commanded a MG Co its more then probable he commanded a MG Section of a MG company?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[derekb]

Thanks Steve, very good information.

D.