No CWGC headstone....

[Matt Dixon]

Gunner Ernest Creed, died in August 1920, buried in Leeds Hunslet Old Cemetery.

He is listed on CWGC, but does not have a CWGC headstone, his name appearing on a mass grave. I suspect that he died in the flu epidemic.

Can anyone explain this anomaly?

Thanks

[Terry Denham]

Matt

This is not an anomaly and it occurs quite often in the UK in large corporation cemeteries.

Often it is not possible to erect headstones in parts of certain cemeteries for various reasons (flooding etc). Sometimes the casualties are buried in common graves and the authority does not permit individual headstones and, on occasions, the n-o-k refuse permission for a stone to be erected.

In these circumstances, CWGC usually erect a screen wall bearing the names. These can be seen in many large cemeteries.

Also, about 18% of War Graves in the UK do not have a CWGC headstone but a private one (and similar numbers in the Dominions) due to the choice of the n-o-k. Having a private stone does not affect the grave's status as a War Grave and therefore the name must appear in CWGC's lists.

A War Grave is signified by acceptance by MoD/CWGC as such and its appearance in the official CWGC database - not by whether there is a CWGC headstone or not.

In fact, Creed is not in a mass grave but he has one of the eighty or so scattered War Graves throughout the cemetery.

[Matt Dixon]

In fact, Creed is not in a mass grave but he has one of the eighty or so scattered War Graves throughout the cemetery.

Terry,

Whilst I bow to your superior knowledge on these matters, I am not certain, if what you say above is true, why are there other names which are obviously not war dead?

[Terry Denham]

Matt

Now that you have posted the pic, I can see what you mean. This is not one of the screen wall memorials which I described above but obviously a private memorial covering some event or group of people. (maybe 1920 is a little late for the flu epidemic but they could be victims of some sort of disease outbreak).

CWGC state in their original register for this cemetery that the War Graves are scattered throughout the cemetery. Creed's is one of these. Obviously the place of his 'scattered' grave is in this location (regardless of whether he is in a single grave or in one with many others).

Of those listed, he may be the only person qualifying for war grave status. Without knowing the purpose of this memorial, it is hard to say.

This again is not unusual and I have seen the 'mass' graves of several people with one War Grave amongst them before - usually the victims of an air raid or some cataclysmic event (train crash etc) where one of the dead was a serving soldier.

Have you any other local clues? Interesting that all the later names are children.

[Matt Dixon]

CWGC details are as follows:

Name: CREED, ERNEST

Initials: E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment: King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regt.)

Unit Text: 3rd Bn.

Age: 40

Date of Death: 03/09/1920

Service No: 18087

Additional information: Son of James and Mary Emily Creed, of Hunslet, Leeds.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: "C." 13777.

Cemetery: LEEDS (HUNSLET OLD) CEMETERY

I have information to suggest that he served in the Anti Aircraft Corps (Searchlights), suggesting perhaps he was wounded and discharged from the forced. Perhaps he died of wounds sustained during the war.

I have tried the Leeds archives with no success.

The purpose of this project is to get a name corrected on a war memorial, where is he listed as being E Cree, but cemetery and death dates correspond.

[Terry Denham]

Being a 1920 casualty, there can be only two possibilities.

1) As you say, wounded during the war and died as a result after discharged (though is there any evidence that he had been discharged?).

2) He was still serving at his death which could have been from any cause.

Discovering the purpose of this joint memorial should give a good idea. Most of the names are female with a number of children. Several are 'Woods'. They did not die at the same time (probably ruling out an accident) but in fairly quick succesion.

Is this the only list of names or is the memorial larger?

There could have been a hospital nearby that catered for a local epidemic which happened to catch one serving soldier as well as civilians.

[Matt Dixon]

Would it be possible please to have a copy of the pages where Creed is mentionned Terry?

[Brigantian]

Matt,

If you can stretch to £7.00, his death certificate might answer some of the questions that have been raised.

In addition to a cause of death it should give:

1 - Where died: e.g. hospital, etc.

2 - Occupation: Rank, no, and unit details and in many cases the serviceman’s civil occupation and sometimes his home address

3 - Description and residence of informant (i.e. the person registering the death): May show next of kin or relative details, if present at the death.

The reference for his death certificate is:

Quarter: Sept 1920

Name: Creed, Ernest

Age: 40

District: Leeds

Volume: 9b

Page: 331

It can be ordered on-line from the General Registry Office and usually takes 4-5 days to arrive.

Regards

Mark