Derek Black Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 Although instituted on the 25th of March 1916, i understand the award of Military Medal could be backdated to 1914. Does anyone know what process this took in order to back date an award, and if it was often done? Looking at CWGC casualties with the award, from the 10,483 in the database there are precious few from before the inaugural date. 1 in 1914 (to an officer!). 13 in 1915. 4 in 1916, before M.M. creation. (One is listed under his Alias, but in his other entry under his real name there's no mention of the award). Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 I understood that when the award was created & info went out to units it was advised that CO's submit names for the award. I expect it was left to the CO to submit names of those he felt earned it & I'm sure names stuck out for acts of bravery from well before the award became available. I've seen one yrs ago to a cavalryman given in 1916 & a bit from the unit history saying it was earned for action in 1914, maybe for carrying messages under fire, can't recall details now. Some may have been submitted for DCM but not awarded so when MM came they were sent in again. All this my own understanding so sure others will have a more knowledgeable explanation. I'd think may names came from the platoon commnaders who were able to see their men act under fire more than the BN CO or Bty CO or such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 I know that two men of the Sherwood Rangers, Ptes Smith and Spring, were awarded the MM for rescuing wounded from the burning gorse near Scimitar Hill on 21/22nd August,1915. So these are two examples of retrospective awards and they must have been recommended for an award either at the time or in 1916 when the MM was introduced--not certain of the process to achieve this though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 I have a MM group to a Royal Warwickshire soldier. He was a pre war regular called back to serve in 1914 and was time expired by 3/16. He left the Army in 3/16. His award must have been back dated. From 8/15 he was attached to 178 Tunnelling Company RE digging the Tambour mines at Fricourt. Nothing in either diary re action etc. AFAIK and from his papers he did not get conscripted again. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 4 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2015 As the DCM is above a MM in precedence, would it have been the case that all unsuccessful DCM applications, deemed not quite meeting the standard expected, were resubmitted in the chancce of a MM being awarded? That would be quite some paperwork job, unless all previous applications existed still? I'm thinking not all regiments persued backdated entitlements equally, the same way they wouldn't all merit a gallant act, or not, the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 Although instituted on the 25th of March 1916, i understand the award of Military Medal could be backdated to 1914. Does anyone know what process this took in order to back date an award, and if it was often done? Looking at CWGC casualties with the award, from the 10,483 in the database there are precious few from before the inaugural date. 1 in 1914 (to an officer!). 13 in 1915. 4 in 1916, before M.M. creation. (One is listed under his Alias, but in his other entry under his real name there's no mention of the award). Derek. Derek I believe hundreds were initially awarded for retrospective actions if Gallipoli is any guide.. If you look at Monro's last Gallipoli despatch I think there is sufficient evidence. Despite being awarded in 1916 after the event, they were clearly for actions in 1915 at Gallipoli. My grandfather was an MM in the supplement to Monro's despatch of March 1916 (with scores of others) and we are not aware of any specific deed at Gallipoli other than the fact he managed to avoid being killed, wounded or evacuated sick. When they were initially awarded (I think - In the context of Gallipoli) they could be awarded for cumulative acts; less than one in ten of his regiment managed to serve without being evacuated or being killed. I suspect he was one of the few who was lucky and just managed to hold things together and the new award was (I think) initially allocated on a quota basis. I may be wrong, but given the lack of MM citations it seems a plausible explanation and Gallipoli was a failed campaign that needed the media attention to refocus on the gallantry rather than the failure. MG I know that two men of the Sherwood Rangers, Ptes Smith and Spring, were awarded the MM for rescuing wounded from the burning gorse near Scimitar Hill on 21/22nd August,1915. So these are two examples of retrospective awards and they must have been recommended for an award either at the time or in 1916 when the MM was introduced--not certain of the process to achieve this though. QED. Only a few yards away from the man mentioned earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 As the DCM is above a MM in precedence, would it have been the case that all unsuccessful DCM applications, deemed not quite meeting the standard expected, were resubmitted in the chancce of a MM being awarded? That would be quite some paperwork job, unless all previous applications existed still? I'm thinking not all regiments persued backdated entitlements equally, the same way they wouldn't all merit a gallant act, or not, the same. As the DCM is above a MM in precedence, would it have been the case that all unsuccessful DCM applications, deemed not quite meeting the standard expected, were resubmitted in the chancce of a MM being awarded? That would be quite some paperwork job, unless all previous applications existed still? I'm thinking not all regiments persued backdated entitlements equally, the same way they wouldn't all merit a gallant act, or not, the same. In theory there were quotas in practice the 10th Irish Div were stuffed at Gallipoli by De Lisle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 4 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2015 A quota system eh? A gentleman I know whose father was awarded the C de G said they were paraded after an engagement and every tenth man was awarded the medal. Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 November , 2015 Share Posted 4 November , 2015 A quota system eh? A gentleman I know whose father was awarded the C de G said they were paraded after an engagement and every tenth man was awarded the medal. Derek. Gfather CdeG. Ditto. Macedonia. Not one in ten though. He had no idea why he was awarded th CdeG. We have a French Huguenot surname and this was always assumed to be the reason why he was the only CdeG in the Regt. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 4 November , 2015 Admin Share Posted 4 November , 2015 In a Parliamentary answer by Mr Tennant Under Secretary of State for War said, " It will be open to commanding officers, in drawing up lists of those whom they wish to put forward for the award of the new medal, to take into consideration previous good service" 'The New Medal For Bravery' The Times March 2 1916 p.8 Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Black Posted 5 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2015 Thanks Ken, but does that mean all C.O.'s knew they could recommend men, including the deceased, from before it's creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 5 November , 2015 Admin Share Posted 5 November , 2015 There was almost certainly an Army Order or ACI I had a look in a couple of AG war diaries but without success. I've had a look at Hansard and the question was specific and the same as yours in that Mr Hogge asked whether the award of the new medal for bravery will be retrospective. The response was as above. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/mar/01/medal-for-bravery-in-field#S5CV0080P0_19160301_HOC_98 The issue of posthumous awards rumbled on through the war until WW2. On November 7 1916 Lloyd George clarified the War Office position as it then was. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/nov/07/military-honours-posthumous-awards#S5CV0087P0_19161107_HOC_211 Off to bed now! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 December , 2022 Share Posted 21 December , 2022 (edited) A slightly different angle on this old topic. Has anyone found an example of a retrospective 1915 MM award for an action where the soldier's gallantry had already been recognised by means of a Mention in Despatches? I have three KRR riflemen who got mentions for the same action in mid 1915, who also appear in the 11 Nov 1916 Military Medal gazette. In his Great War Medal Collector's Companion (p.405), Williamson states this LG issue covers MM awards for the Somme 1916 and Gallipoli, but also that it was the principal LG issue for retrospective MM awards for acts in 1915 and even 1914. The deadline for COs to submit recommendations for such awards had been 01 Jul 1916. One of my riflemen got a Blighty wound in the MiD 1915 action and did not return to the Front in time for the 1916 Somme battles. Neither of the other two appear in any of the 1916 Somme MM lists in any of my KRRC sources, though these are at best only 90% reliable. No KRRC at Gallipoli of course. One scenario I'm considering is the MMs for which they were gazetted in Nov 1916 relate to the same action in 1915. Is anyone aware of a 1915 MiD later being "upgraded" to a Military Medal? Mark Edited 21 December , 2022 by MBrockway typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlersChampagne Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 Hi Mark, you are correct. A substantial number of MIDs for 1914 and 1915 were later upgraded to MMs in the retrospective gazettes. The gazette of 11.11.1916 you mention is full of 1915 awards. A large number of Gallipoli awards in 1916 are upgraded MIDs from 1915 or early 1916. Kind regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 December , 2022 Share Posted 22 December , 2022 24 minutes ago, FlersChampagne said: Hi Mark, you are correct. A substantial number of MIDs for 1914 and 1915 were later upgraded to MMs in the retrospective gazettes. The gazette of 11.11.1916 you mention is full of 1915 awards. A large number of Gallipoli awards in 1916 are upgraded MIDs from 1915 or early 1916. Kind regards Chris Good news Chris - can you give a few examples of these 'upgraded' MiDs if possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlersChampagne Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 A few for Gallipoli ALCOCK George Lance Corporal 10176 4TH BN WORC R L/Gaz 3.6.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli L/Gaz 5.11.15 and 5.5.16 ALLAN (BAR) Douglas Fraser Corporal 1509 & 1256 1ST BN AUST INF AIF L/Gaz 27.10.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli ASTLES John Sergeant 11040 WORC R late 4TH BN WORC R 29 L/Gaz 11.11.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli L/Gaz 5.11.15 and 5.5.16 ATKINS George Thomas Private 8088 ESSEX R DEPOT late 1ST BN ESSEX R 29 L/Gaz 3.6.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli BABER Henry John L/Sjt 984 4TH FD AMB AUST AMC AIF L/Gaz 27.10.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli BAILEY Leslie Hubert Sjt 1318 9TH BN AUST INF AIF L/Gaz 27.10.16 Gallipoli MID for Gallipoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 23 December , 2022 Share Posted 23 December , 2022 Thanks Chris. I'll chase through the LG trail for some of these and see if I can find the corresponding Corps Routine Orders for their 'upgrades'. I can then use the info gathered to check for a similar trail for my three riflemen. After Xmas now of course! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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