varifleman Posted 30 October , 2015 Share Posted 30 October , 2015 Here for your viewing pleasure is BSACo. Lee-Enfield MKI* Model 1899 dated 1901 serial number A55655 which was issued to PVT Van Buren Arnold who enlisted in the 6th Canadian Mounted Rifles, South African Forces at Calgary on April 24 1902. he proceeded to South Africa, was returned to Canada, and struck off strength in consequence of "Disbandment of the Forces." He retained the rifle after leaving service. The rifle still has its original issue oil bottle. Any thoughts about how Arnold was able to retain his rifle after his discharge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 More of Arnold's service records: http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww253/varifleman/007_e002154740.jpg http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww253/varifleman/009_e002154741.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 (edited) Unit markings on butt plate; Maker's stamp on stock and oil bottle: Edited 30 October , 2015 by varifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 Few more service records: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 30 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2015 (edited) Photos of various markings; all matching serial numbers on bolt, rear sight and receiver. Edited 30 October , 2015 by varifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Hmmm interesting rifle - especially with all the history and provenance. That kind of thing is very rare to have and makes it unique in itself. I seem to have one of its brothers, also BSA 1901 vintage with serial A53731 which ended up being shipped out to colonial Victoria, Australia. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 31 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2015 very nice Colonial service L-E rifle; thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Two excellent examples those, particularly with the background on the first one - I dream of finding a traceable rifle! Varirifleman - is the "Model 1889" reference Canadian practice? I know the MkI* was approved in 1889 but in British service I don't think I have seen the use of a year model number. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 Here is mine: Continuing the commonwealth theme this one is NZ marked. When I took these pics I dug some of my other variants of MLE out - I'll start a different thread for those. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 31 October , 2015 Share Posted 31 October , 2015 I note that his regimental number is 380, while the rifle is stamped #382---close enough !! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 1 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2015 Two excellent examples those, particularly with the background on the first one - I dream of finding a traceable rifle! Varirifleman - is the "Model 1889" reference Canadian practice? I know the MkI* was approved in 1889 but in British service I don't think I have seen the use of a year model number. Chris Right Chris, I should just refer to the rifle as a Lee-Enfiled MKI* and leave out the 1899 when it was approved. I note that his regimental number is 380, while the rifle is stamped #382---close enough !! Regards, JMB Yes JMB, nice observation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 19 November , 2015 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2015 Here's a 1908 photo of Van Buren and his new bride taken in Browning MO after which they returned to to their homestead in Crossfield Alberta which he filed for in 1902. Now all I need is a photo of him in uniform holding the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 11 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Took the rifle out to the range yesterday and had excellent results at 50 yards with Hornady .303 British 174-gr boat tail hollow point Vintage Match ammo. This off-the-shelf ammo is designed to provide top of the line quality and match grade accuracy. The boat tail helps reduce the drag on the round as it travels to its target. The muzzle velocity of this product is 2430 feet per second and will still be traveling at roughly 1650 feet per second at 500 yards. Its trajectory levels out at 200 meters, and drops 10.5 inches at 300 yards. These cartridges have a brass case, are Boxer primed, non-corrosive, and are reloadable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 The Hornady round's clearly intended to replicate 303 Mk.VII ball initial ballistics and presumably carries a pointed bullet. Does it feed OK? The rifle will have been designed for the earlier marks of .303 SAA which used a roundnosed 215 grain bullet, and your magazine looks to be of that design. Other threads have quoted primary sources detailing serious feeding issues when the earlier magazine profile was used with Mk.VII ammunition. At greater distances the flatter trajectory of Mk.VII (or similar) performance should progressively diverge from the nominal range settings on the sights. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 11 December , 2015 Share Posted 11 December , 2015 Very nice looking rifles, how he managed to keep his rifle is a great question, maybe when the unit was disbanded he was able to purchase his rifle, was that unit a locally raised militia? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 aROUND THIS PERIOD RIFLE CLUBS WERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Around this period rifle clubs were very popular throughout the empire and supported by the military. As a member of the unit he may have been allowed to buy a unit rifle for use with the club. This practice continued in Australia through to the 1980s - members of regular and reserve army units who were members of the unit rifle club could purchase the standard service rifle (SLR L1A1) direct from the government factory at Lithgow. The product was a new (FTR) rifle in the Styrofoam box with bayonet 3 magazines and cleaning kit. The rifle is his personal property and would not normally be stored in the unit armoury. Frankly it is unlikely to be the rifle he had on personal issue when he landed in South Africa, however he may have managed to arrange for that. Cheers RT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 The photograph in post #3 shows that the rifle is unit marked which suggests to me that it was the property of the 6CMR and not personal property at that time. Its disposal from inventory may have been by public sale/auction, probably not too hard to manage to locate your issue weapon at a sale. At least it wasn't sporterised by the owner. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 12 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2015 In early 1901, the Canadian government offered to raise a third contingent for service in South Africa, but the British replied that there was no need. In November 1901, however, the British government requested a four-squadron regiment of mounted rifles. In a departure from previous practice, the unit was recruited as an integral part of the British Army, though retaining its Canadian identity. Moreover, while the Canadian Department of Militia and Defence would equip and train the unit, the British would pay its costs. In April 1902, the British requested from Canada a fourth contingent of 2,000 men recruited and funded on the same basis as the 2nd Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles. The contingent was recruited in April 1902 and organized into four regiments of Canadian Mounted Rifles. Each regiment had 26 officers, 483 men and 539 horses, organized into a headquarters and four squadrons. The contingent therefore could field 16 squadrons, three more than the combined strengths of the second and third contingents, plus Strathcona's Horse.Each regiment was commanded by a veteran of previous service in South Africa, and included a large number of veterans in both its commissioned and non-commissioned ranks. These units arrived in South Africa after the war had ended, however, and returned to Canada in July 1902 at which time they disbanded. 77.5 percent of the 6th CMR were Canadian-born with the rest being mostly British-born with a few American-born men (the 5th CMR contained the highest percentage of American-born men at 5.7 percent). Most recruits lacked any previous military experience with some having been in the Canadian militia (Info is from Canadian War Museum and "Painting the Map Red: Canada and the South African War 1899-1902 by Carman Miller which is an excellent work). Professor Miller sent me his thoughts concerning PVT Arnold and his rifle: "As you know the 6th CMR arrived too late to participate in the conflict. It contained a large number of recruits from previous units whose time had expired.Van Buren Arnold sounds like an interesting person and it would be fascinating to learn more about his reasons to join the CMR. Had he been active in other conflicts, for example Cuba? We know too that the border was very fluid at the time, ever so much more than today.Questions of security and retention of arms were much more casual, as well, especially in militia forces that encouraged armed citizenry, and the virtues of sharp shooters, notions very popular in Canada at the time. The Canadian force was especially anxious to encourage both, supplying civilian rifle ranges with guns and ammunition. At this time, too, the Canadian Minister of Militia had chosen to replace the Lee-Enfield with the Ross Rifle; that too made retention of the Lee Enfield less important." According to his enlistment papers Arnold had no previous military experience at least in any British or Canadian military/navy (I'm still looking for any prior US military experience) and I recall reading that men were offered a Canadian land grant as a recruiting inducement. Arnold got such a grant and had a farm-stead in Alberta (as shown in the 1916 Canadian Census) until returning to the US in 1919 and settling down in Missouri . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 12 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2015 The Hornady round's clearly intended to replicate 303 Mk.VII ball initial ballistics and presumably carries a pointed bullet. Does it feed OK? The rifle will have been designed for the earlier marks of .303 SAA which used a roundnosed 215 grain bullet, and your magazine looks to be of that design. Other threads have quoted primary sources detailing serious feeding issues when the earlier magazine profile was used with Mk.VII ammunition. At greater distances the flatter trajectory of Mk.VII (or similar) performance should progressively diverge from the nominal range settings on the sights. Regards, MikB Hi Mike; the Hornady ammo feed fine with no problems. I've got a few hundred rounds of WWII-dated .303 British Army issue ammo which I'll try next time I take this rifle to the range; that ammo works flawlessly in my SMLE 1916-dated MKIII* rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggoner Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 It is my understanding that, after arriving home from South Africa, the soldiers were allowed to keep their rifles. Sorry, but I don't have a reference for this. All the best, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varifleman Posted 12 December , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2015 It is my understanding that, after arriving home from South Africa, the soldiers were allowed to keep their rifles. Sorry, but I don't have a reference for this. All the best, Gary Yes Gary; I recall seeing that somewhere also and will try to find the source(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 Hi Mike; the Hornady ammo feed fine with no problems. I've got a few hundred rounds of WWII-dated .303 British Army issue ammo which I'll try next time I take this rifle to the range; that ammo works flawlessly in my SMLE 1916-dated MKIII* rifle. Thanks. It puts some of the writings of the time into question, and makes me wonder if there was something else wrong causing the feed failures. The Mk.III* was built for Mk.VII ammunition, so could be expected to feed it correctly. You should be able to notice a flatter floor to the magazine box than on the 1899. When I first got my SMLE Mk.III*, it had an older-pattern mag, which at that time I didn't know enough to notice. Although I subsequently replaced it with the correct one, I didn't experience any feeding failures either - though my testing wasn't very exacting... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 13 December , 2015 Share Posted 13 December , 2015 I would imagine a good rifle was a necessity with a land grant in Canada at the turn of the century, Especially one that you had been trained to use and had confidence in. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now