Bayonet Gendarmerie ?

[beestonboxer]

I have taken a look on the net and seen several examples that look similar to this one I have recently purchased except the quillon on mine is much shorter, has this been cut or was it manufactured in this way ? any other details on the bayonet will be much appreciated, has 8626 on quillon what looks to be a C and P on the blade.A number 7 at the end of the hilt overall length a little over 51.5cm blade length 40cm. Would the bayonet have been used WW1 period ?

Thanks Tim

2nd photo

[shippingsteel]

Yes I believe you are correct. This looks to be a French Gendarmerie bayonet - technically known as an Epee-Baionette de Gendarmerie Modele 90.

This model shares many similarities to the possibly better known Modele 1895 bayonet for the Daudeteau rifle, both with the distinctive grooved handle.

This was designed to allow the bayonet to be attached to the rifle with the cleaning rod still in place. The rod would then sit neatly in place in this groove.

The major difference between the 2 is the design of the press-stud, with the Gendarmerie locking at the pommel and the Daudeteau locking at the guard.

Regarding the quillon, it originally would have been longer and more hooked. It appears to have been cutoff at some stage and the blade also shortened.

Apparently these were shortened from the original 520mm blade in 1935. The quillon may have been trimmed during the war, Lebels being done as well.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

I have taken a look on the net and seen several examples that look similar to this one I have recently purchased ...

While I do not want to claim or imply I have any special authority or knowledge of French bayonets, this is perhaps more likely to be the almost identical Épée-baïonnette modèle 1902 'indochinoise'. I gather from a reliable source (but I could be mistaken) that while the 'gendarmerie' version was for the 1890 Gendarmerie carbine, and was introduced in 1894, the almost identical 'indochinoise' model was for the Fusil modèle 1902, 'de tirailleurs indochinois', but was originally manufactured under contract to Persia and not delivered for some reason, but then sent to Indochina.

How to tell the difference between the two? Well, my French isn't all that it should be... But as I understand it the 'indochinoise' version lacks a letter in front of the serial number - so, if yours does not have a letter in front of that serial number 8626, then perhaps this is the 'indochinoise' model. More on the point, so to speak, I understand that in 1912, it was decided that in its original (and now rare) '1902' form, with a 520 mm blade, this was too long for Indo-Chinese troops, and so the Minister of the Navy ordered a shortening of the blade to 400mm, which is about what you have. Either way, it is a GW period bayonet if not necessarily used in theatre.

Trajan

Oh, and when you say that you have seen 'several examples like this' - do you mean with the grooved handle? If so, buy them, as they are not at all common!

[shippingsteel]

Here is some further information regarding this bayonet, including a photo for comparison purposes. [Courtesy JPS of Gunboards Forum] link HERE

The Berthier carbines illustrated are the Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 at top, and the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 shown at bottom.

The bayonet in this photo has been identified as the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890 and as you can see is very similar to the example posted in the OP.

The French Colonial Mle 1902 epee-baionette mentioned above is nearly identical in design to the Modele 1890 illustrated and they are interchangeable.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... The French Colonial Mle 1902 epee-baionette mentioned above is nearly identical in design to the Modele 1890 illustrated and they are interchangeable. ...

Thanks SS for showing those nice pieces! And, yes, the Model 1890 and the Model 1902 bayonets are identical - except for the serial numbering system and the way that the 'Colonial' model was cut down in 1912...

Now, having just found myself unexpectedly free from a graduate class (I forgot it was their turn to present papers today!), then I thought I'd better check on my ID of Beestonboxer's bayonet as being perhaps "more likely" to be an Épée-baïonnette modèle 1902 'indochinoise', especially as I have been accused in the past for relying too much on "Bookish learnin'"!

Well, in my opinion, you can't beat having a good library in these matters, but just in case I checked with what the Montpellier Musée de L'Infanterie had to say on the Indo-China Model 1902 bayonet, and they note that it was based on the carabine de gendarmerie modèle 1890 bayonet which is why they are identical. It also says that in 1903, examples of the M.1902 bayonet were sent to Tonkin, with more being sent there in 1906 and 1907.

However, according to the same source, in 1912 - just as I noted previously from another source - "il est décidé par le ministre de la marine d’adopter une épée-baïonnette plus courte en ramenant la lame de 520 mm à 400mm", which even my limited French can read as: "It was decided by the Ministry of the Navy to adopt a short epee bayonet and so the blade was turned from a 520 mm length to 400 mm."

More or less the same information was given in a fourth French source on the 1902 bayonet, but which added that the genesis of the bayonet - or, rather, the rifle it fitted - was in 1901, when the governor of Indo-China requested (the French source actually says "demanda"!) a fusil adapted for the indigenous troops. This firearm is the French "modèle 1902", but as far as I can see it is essentially a Berthier Mle 1890 but apparently with different sights - I am certainly no rifle buff!

However, if you look at the link that SS supplied, then in post no.2, a well-known expert on French rifles identifies two of the rifles shown in picture 6 in the OP of that thread as the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902, and adds that according to a "Ministrial Dispatch (dépêche ministerial) 34117/2/3 dated August 9, 1907 the name of the weapon will be the Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais Modèle 1907. In 1908 it was then decided to widen the issuance of the weapon to other colonial troops except those in Indochina and per ministrial dispatch 22859/2/3 of June 6, 1908 it re-named the rifle to Fusil Colonial Modèle 1907."

But that is by the by, so back to Beestonboxer's bayonet.... It is 400 mm long, which is what a shortened Épée-baïonnette modèle 1902 'indochinoise' should be, and it lacks a letter in front of the serial number, another characteristic of the '1902'. So, I for one am reasonably confident that it is indeed an Épée-baïonnette modèle 1902 'indochinoise', for the 'tirailleurs indochinois', and would suggest that maybe the quillon was cut at the same time as it was shortened.

TTFN,

Trajan

Incidentally, it does seem that these are on the rare side...

[beestonboxer]

While I do not want to claim or imply I have any special authority or knowledge of French bayonets, this is perhaps more likely to be the almost identical Épée-baïonnette modèle 1902 'indochinoise'. I gather from a reliable source (but I could be mistaken) that while the 'gendarmerie' version was for the 1890 Gendarmerie carbine, and was introduced in 1894, the almost identical 'indochinoise' model was for the Fusil modèle 1902, 'de tirailleurs indochinois', but was originally manufactured under contract to Persia and not delivered for some reason, but then sent to Indochina.

How to tell the difference between the two? Well, my French isn't all that it should be... But as I understand it the 'indochinoise' version lacks a letter in front of the serial number - so, if yours does not have a letter in front of that serial number 8626, then perhaps this is the 'indochinoise' model. More on the point, so to speak, I understand that in 1912, it was decided that in its original (and now rare) '1902' form, with a 520 mm blade, this was too long for Indo-Chinese troops, and so the Minister of the Navy ordered a shortening of the blade to 400mm, which is about what you have. Either way, it is a GW period bayonet if not necessarily used in theatre.

Trajan

Oh, and when you say that you have seen 'several examples like this' - do you mean with the grooved handle? If so, buy them, as they are not at all common!

Thanks for all the comments, looks to be an interesting bayonet very happy to have purchased it. When I said " several examples like this " most were on dealers sites as sold. I have taken another look and there does look to be a letter A in front of the number although there is a gap of approx 5 mm between the A and the first number. I have also taken another look at the makers mark on the blade it looks to be G and P.

Thanks again Tim

[trajan]

... there does look to be a letter A in front of the number although there is a gap of approx 5 mm between the A and the first number ...

Interesting! The remark on the lack of the letter in front of the serial number was only noted in one of Mery's books on French bayonets - that's at home, and so I can't check right now. Even if there is a letter there, no less than four sources confirm the shortening of the Indo-China 1902 to 400 mm, which is what you have. The Germans also shortened Lebels, but IIRC, these were to around 320-350 mm. In which case I'd go for the rarity - the Model 1902!

Trajan

[beestonboxer]

Sorry for missing the information about the letter A in front of the number it will teach me to be looking at these things in the dark and I know its the small detail like this that can make the difference. It just looked like a squiggle last night but now certainly a letter A.

Tim

[trajan]

Sorry for missing the information about the letter A ...It just looked like a squiggle ...

I know the feeling... So, what I suggest in this case, is posting this one on Gunboards Forum for the French experts to see. It could be that Mery's claim that the Model 1902 has no letter in front of the serial letter is wrong. Indeed, it looks like the one illustrated at: http://www.armeetpassion.com/modele1890gendarmerie-1902indochinois.htmlmight have a letter as well... Either way, the length of yours - 400 mm - seems to me a more decisive factor, given how several sources refer to this aspect of the shortened 1902.

Julian

[trajan]

The Germans also shortened Lebels, but IIRC, these were to around 320-350 mm. ...

Just to confirm, these German ones are from WW2, and were officially designated as the S.102(f), if made from the baïonnette mle 1866, and the S.103(f), if made from the baïonnette modèle 1886-15, both versions having an official overall length of 460 mm, so with blades at about 340 mm. I could not find anything to indicate that the Germans had access to or converted the M.1890 or 1902 bayonets.

I had a few minutes spare and did a trawl for a shortened 1902, but only one came up in that time, with a blade of 420 mm, and quillon intact! - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/french-bayonet-fusil-de-tirailleur-532741750

[beestonboxer]

Don't know if it helps but here is an image of the A at the beginning of the serial number.

[trajan]

That is the script letter 'A' indicating manufacture by the Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), which is where these Model 1902 bayonets were made, so it is not a serial letter - as I would understand it - for the bayonet number... Odds back on for it being a 1902, then - but let's see what other comments come in. As I have said before, "more likely" to be a 1902 than a 1900, but I really don't know enough about French bayonets (or enough French, for that matter!) to be certain...

[shippingsteel]

Don't know if it helps but here is an image of the A at the beginning of the serial number.

Many thanks for adding the photo of the serial numbering as the letter A shown is an important identifier of the original manufacturer, which as stated was Châtellerault (MAC)

But in this case the A prefix is not of much help ... as the original Mle 1890 Gendarmerie baionette was also manufactured by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault.

Here are some snippets quoted from an accepted expert on the French weapons, a Monsieur '1886Lebel' also known as Patrick, who usually hangs out on Gunboards Forum.

Re: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890

"The Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 was developed for the Gendarmerie which were the military police units within the French Army and their carbine is identical to the cavalry carbine except for the location and construction of the upper barrel band. It is set back 4 1/2" from the muzzle and was designed to accept the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890. Once again production numbers are sketchy but it is estimated that only 50,000 of these weapons were made from 1891 or 1892 to 1893 at both Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Etienne (MAS) and Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC). Serial Numbers: MAC A 1 - A 18831 (1892 dates); A 18832 - A 20000 (1893 dates) … MAS F 1 - F 30839"

Re: Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902

"The weapon produced for them was the Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 ... All of these rifles were manufactured solely by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) for the basic price of 51,58F (51 Francs/58 centimes) and it is believed that possibly only 32,500 were made (see below for numbers). These were delivered to Indochina in zinc-lined cases of 20 rifles in the following numbers:

1902: Décret Ministériel N° 15649 dated 05/22/1902: 10,000 weapons ordered (A1 - A10000), sold to Indochina for a price of 56 francs, the contract was finished in 1903, it was sent and delivered to Tonkin.

1904: Décret Ministériel N° 6059/2/3 dated 02/21/1904: 4,500 weapons ordered (A10001 - A14500), sold to Indochina for a price of 63 francs, the contract was finished in December 1904, it was sent and delivered to Tonkin."

However there is no guarantee that the bayonets sent with the Indochinois rifles were actually newly manufactured and matching serial numbered to the rifles.

Some collectors would have it that they were examples of the original Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890 that were simply checked & redeployed (later shortened).

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... Here are some snippets quoted from an accepted expert on the French weapons, a Monsieur '1886Lebel' also known as Patrick, who usually hangs out on Gunboards Forum. ...

Thanks for searching that one out SS - I knew that more information on this topic would be found somewhere on GBF, and for those who want to follow it up, the link is: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?86602-*-Berthier-Carbine-and-Rifle-Information-*

However, back to Beestonboxer's bayonet. Would you now agree that on the basis of its length that it is indeed an example of the Model 1902? Or at the very least, allow that whatever its origin, it was shortened for service in Indo-China, which was the basis for my ID of this one as posted in no.3?

TTFN,

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

The issue of length is neither here nor there ... most French bayonets of this broad type that continued in service were shortened at some stage of their long 'career'.

I believe it is an original Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 90 that has been shortened. The trimmed quillon means it was more likely to have stayed in French military service.

PS. Perhaps more importantly, I'm yet to see any photographic evidence put forward that shows these Indochinois epee-baionettes with quillon trimmed as per the OP.

Cheers, S>S

EDIT. More notes on this particular issue, quoted from Patrick on Gunboards (1886Lebel)

"Think of it this way ... The full length Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890 was used with the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890, in 1902 the Fusil de Tirailleurs Indochinois Modèle 1902 was adopted for service and utilized the same exact bayonet but was just called as the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 for use with this rifle but in 1912 was shortened as it was found that these were too long for the smaller stature Indochinese soldiers that were using them, so the bayonets nomenclature changed ... Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 Raccourci 1912."

[trajan]

The issue of length is neither here nor there ... most French bayonets of this broad type that continued in service were shortened at some stage of their long 'career'. ... I'm yet to see any photographic evidence put forward that shows these Indochinois epee-baionettes with quillon trimmed as per the OP. ... More notes on this particular issue, quoted from Patrick on Gunboards (1886Lebel) ...so the bayonets nomenclature changed ... Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 Raccourci 1912."

SS, you are wriggling around giving an answer to my question in post 14 "Would you now agree that on the basis of its length that it is indeed an example of the Model 1902?"!!!

True, French (and other bayonets) were often shortened: e.g., the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Raccourci 1935, which has a blued blade, and the German shortening of the Label, explained in post no.10...

However, as is made clear by several French sources, including the French National Army museum, and even by our American colleague and "accepted expert on the French weapons" Patrick -1886Lebel, the only official shortening of Beestonboxer's type of bayonet is that decreed by the Navy Ministry in 1912, concerning those supplied to Indo-China which were to be shortened officially to a length of 400 mm. So, whatever original name you give to it when first made, an M.1890 or an M.1902, as Beestonboxer's bayonet is that length, so it is an Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 'indochinoise' - or, if you prefer, an Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 Raccourci 1912.

On the matter of the cut-quillon, well, who knows - merely a suggestion of mine that it could have been done when the bayonet blade was shortened... If I find one, though, would you welcome the discovery?

Oh, and by the way, for those who are interested, the quote SS give at the end from Patrick-1886lebel, is from post no.10 at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?385659-Odd-french-bayonet - and where he shows a bayonet identical to Beestonboxers....

TTFN,

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Still missing the point about the quillon, I'm afraid ... and Patricks example is far from "identical to Beestonboxers" as it still has its quillon intact.

Quite an important factor to consider when looking at the possible background of a bayonet I would have thought - major official modifications.!

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Still missing the point about the quillon, I'm afraid ... and Patricks example is far from "identical to Beestonboxers" as it still has its quillon intact.

Quite an important factor to consider when looking at the possible background of a bayonet I would have thought - major official modifications.!

Cheers, S>S

And you are still wriggling and avoiding directly answering my question by harping on about this quillon business! So, you have an alternative suggestion? Please do share it!

Best wishes,

Trajan

[beestonboxer]

The mark on the blade.

[trajan]

That's an interesting one!

Patrick-1886lebel mentions these marks as being found on 'regular' Lebel blades made by private contractors during the GW... But the maker is unknown. See: http://milsurpshooter.net/topic/38381/Re-French-1886-LEBEL-Bayonet-and-scabbard?page=-1#.VjIv6_krLIU post no.6.

And he also notes their use specifically on blades for the Mle 1886/15... See:http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?135686-Mle-1886-bayonets-and-variants post 20...

In fact a quick search shows these C&P marked blades with both 'German silver' (nickel silver = bronze de nickel = maillechort), and 'brass' hilts, and so there is some re-hilting going on here - 'German silver' ones were originally available pre-August 1914 only...

But yours has a hilt which is clearly a Mle.1890 or a Mle. 1902 (take your pick on that number!), and is most certainly not an 1886 of any pattern, and has the shortening associated with the Indo-Chinese ones... I confess to bemusement!

[shippingsteel]

The issue of length is neither here nor there ... most French bayonets of this broad type that continued in service were shortened at some stage of their long 'career'.

I believe it is an original Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 90 that has been shortened. The trimmed quillon means it was more likely to have stayed in French military service.

Yes as I was saying, this example in the OP shows the signs of staying in mainstream French military service, with the cut-down quillon being a common wartime modification.

And the photo of the C&P marking on the blade further supports this, as the marking is recognised as likely indicating wartime refurbishment work done by a private contractor.

If the bayonet was shipped off to Indochina circa 1902 it is very unlikely to have been around to receive these modifications and markings done during the Great War in France.

The issue of shortening and the current blade length is the ultimate 'red herring' as while the Mle 1902 may have been shortened, so too were most French service baïonnettes.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Yes as I was saying, this example in the OP shows the signs of staying in mainstream French military service, with the cut-down quillon being a common wartime modification. ... And the photo of the C&P marking on the blade further supports this, as the marking is recognised as likely indicating wartime refurbishment work done by a private contractor. ...If the bayonet was shipped off to Indochina circa 1902 it is very unlikely to have been around to receive these modifications and markings done during the Great War in France. ... The issue of shortening and the current blade length is the ultimate 'red herring' as while the Mle 1902 may have been shortened, so too were most French service baïonnettes.

Remembering that I claim no great expertise in French bayonets, a few points in the above need responding to...

First, it needs to be stressed that to the best of my knowledge there was never a wartime order to shorten bayonets. As far as I am aware the only French bayonets that were shortened by the French army are those Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 with a blade length of 340mm, allegedly shortened prior to the GW for Troupes Cyclistes, but which are probably really German shortenings; and the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886/15 Raccourci 1935, which was certainly shortened according to a ministerial decree, on which see Patrick's detailed comments at: http://greatwarforum.proboards.com/thread/488/ba-onnette-mod-le-1886 It is true that this detailed note of Patrick's is concerned specifically with the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886/15 Raccourci 1935, and not the Mle 1890 or Mle 1900: but the fact that the only official shortening of bayonet blades in French service that seems to exist is that of 1935 surely has a bearing on (and to some extent negates) the implicit suggestion that such shortening may have been a wartime practice...

Second, it also needs to be stressed that to the best of my knowledge there was never a wartime or post-war order to shorten the quillons on French bayonets. From what I have seen they were certainly systematically and entirely removed from several Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886, but not shortened, this model then being produced in a quillon-less modified form, becoming the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886/15. Having said that, in all fairness it needs to be observed that there is some dispute as to whether or not the short quillons on the Berthier III bayonet were shortened before or after manufacture (Patrick, however, observes at: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?353113-French-Berthier-bayonet-1892-stamps-and-markingsthat the Troisième (3ème) Type is " easily distinguishable by the removal of the first third of the quillion during the manufacturing process, not cut-off as has been rumored. It is not know when exactly this process was done, some sources say it was done in January 1915, others say it was late September 1918.")

All of this brings us back to the C&P mark on the blade... Well, as I understand it, blades marked in this fashion are found with both 'German silver' and 'brass' (laiton) hilts, albeit more usually with the second, the first of these metals being in use up to 25th October 1914, when it was officially replaced by brass or aluminum bronze (bronze d'aluminium), aka as "tambak". In theory at least the existence of these C&P blades with nickel-silver hilts allows for the possibility that C&P blades were around before 1914, although it is equally possible that older 'German silver' hilts were given new blades, in which case I would expect the quillon on these to have removed at the time of the re-furbishing.

So, Beestonboxer's is turning out to be a "... riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma". Here we have an 1890 or 1902 hilt with an allegedly 1914-18 made blade, that has been shortened to a length found in the Mle 1902 bayonet from 1912, but which shortening is certified on mainland France only by a ministerial decree specifically for the Mle.1886/15 in 1935, the blades and all other white metal parts then being blued, which looks to be the case with Beestonboxers...

An obvious solution to the problem would be a replacement blade sent out to Indo-China before the French left there in 1954, but that is the easy way out... And the Mle.1890, in its various forms, continued in service use into the 1950's, so no help there. However, to continue with the quote from WSC, "perhaps there is a key..." - in the form of any controller's marks on the blade, which may help date it - so, any other marks on this one Beestonboxer?!

Trajan

[beestonboxer]

I have given the bayonet a good look over and there are no other marks on it except the 7 at the end of the hilt. Thanks to those who have contributed to this post so far, a very interesting little bayonet and some interesting posts.

Tim

[trajan]

... there are no other marks on it except the 7 at the end of the hilt. Thanks to those who have contributed to this post so far, a very interesting little bayonet and some interesting posts.

Pity about the first point and too right about the second! If it is a previously unrecorded modified version of an 1890, then a real rarity,,, and if a modified 1902, then still a rarity... I hope that somebody on GBF may be able to throw some light on it, and if not then I'll try the French boards...

Whatever, a rare, unusual, and highly discuss-able piece, and so very nice to have!

Trajan