fattycrowe Posted 18 November , 2004 Share Posted 18 November , 2004 Hello All! Firstly, what an amazing forum!!! I have just obtained the MCI for my Grandfather and have made a startling discovery!!! I have just recently begun researching his WW1 service and knew that he enlisted in the RMF , but the MCI shows that he served in three other regiments. The regimenatal details on the MCI are: R. Mun. Fus Pte. 3659 R. W. Fus L\cpl 86825 (Royal Welsh Fusilers?) R Ir Rif L\cpl 1898 (Royal Irish Rifles?) L'pool R L\cpl 8991 (Liverpool Regiment?) According to the MCI he entered the French theatre of war on the 17\12\15. He was discharged on 13\06\18.This is a huge surprise for me as up to know I thought that he only served in the RMF. Was this type of transfer common? Why did it occur ? Did the change in regiment number always occur after a transfer? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Brendan Crowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 19 November , 2004 Share Posted 19 November , 2004 This is not uncommon,Men were drafted to other Battalions & Regiments as the need arose,often after being slightly wounded & on recovery they might be posted to another Regiment within their Division that needed an influx of "New Blood",Unlike WW2 where Men retained their Service Number throughout their Service~{except in a few cases,~Militia,etc;}In WW1 when a Man was posted or Re Mustered he was usually issued another number{unless he was serving with a different Battalion of the Same Regiment~though even this is not hard & fast} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 According to the MCI he entered the French theatre of war on the 17\12\15. He was discharged on 13\06\18. Brendan Crowe Hi Brendan Welcome to the Forum. Given the dates shown your Grandfather was probably entitled to a Silver War Badge in addition to his 1914/15 Star, War Medal & Victory Medal. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Brendan, Did you obtain the MIC from DocumentsOnline? If so you will have downloaded a pdf file with 6 medal index cards on. In many cases it is possible for each of the MICs on any particular sheet to bear the same name but in reality be to 6 completely different men. My main reason for thinking this is that whilst not at all uncommon for a man to be transferred several times, the Regimental numbers you quote would appear to be numbers associated with pre-war Regulars, not later transferees, particularly for the R.Ir.Rif and the Liverpool Regt. Can you confirm whether these details appear on a SINGLE card, or there are infact the sum of several cards. Waiting to be shot down in flames! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Can you confirm whether these details appear on a SINGLE card, or there are infact the sum of several cards. Waiting to be shot down in flames! Steve Hi Steve If you look on-line you will find that this is just one card to Patrick Joseph Crowe containing all of the numbers and details. The on-line mic, however, shows him as serving with the Royal Irish Fusiliers as opposed to the Royal Irish Rifles, probably just a clerical error. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Steve, That will teach me to read the title of a thread before launching into a load of waffle! Had I realised you'd posted full details in the title I would have been able to answer my own question! Still, it is a strange lot of transfers; 3 Fusilier Regts and then the Liverpool Regt. There must be an interesting tale behind it. And your final point highlights beautifully the dangers with the online system. Extremely useful for a quick check, or focussed search, but you really do need to see the card to be sure of the facts, and at £3.50 a throw online that is out of the question for more than the odd card or two. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Steve, That will teach me to read the title of a thread before launching into a load of waffle! Had I realised you'd posted full details in the title I would have been able to answer my own question! Still, it is a strange lot of transfers; 3 Fusilier Regts and then the Liverpool Regt. There must be an interesting tale behind it. And your final point highlights beautifully the dangers with the online system. Extremely useful for a quick check, or focussed search, but you really do need to see the card to be sure of the facts, and at £3.50 a throw online that is out of the question for more than the odd card or two. Regards Steve Hi Steve You are still a little confused. It was not my thread, I was merely replying to your query to Brendan. If you search for a mic on-line and then go to details it will show you the ranks and Regiments appertaining to that single card. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPotter Posted 20 November , 2004 Share Posted 20 November , 2004 Steve, Quite right - obviously going doolally. I located Patrick Crowe's card to discover exactly as advertised ~ subsequent transfers are listed. I had not realised that this was the case, as the when I did a similar thing for one of the men in my collection who had a number of transfers only his initial Regt is given, so assumed that one had to download the card to see more. I have learned something - thank you all Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMF Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Brendan: The 8th (Service) Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers arrived in France on December 17, 1915 which coincides with your grandfathers' arrival date. During 1915 the 8th (Service) Battalion received personnel from other overstrength regiments, including the Royal Irish Regiment, Leinster Regiment, the Wiltshire Regiment and the Connaguht Rangers, so perhaps your grandfather was one of those transferred in. In the Royal Munster Fusiliers, a new regimental number was normally asssigned to a soldier transferred from another regiment. Hope this is of some help. Bob Yeoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hello All! Wow ! I never expected to get such a response! Thanks all for all your info. I decided to to one large reply rather than replying individually. Find attached an image of his MIC. I will add his photo a photo of the man himself in uniform onto my next message. It is a clerical error concerning the online MIC stating that he was in the Royal Irish Fusilers , the MIC states that he was in the Royal Irish Rifles. We have his medals: 1914 - 1915 Star ( with ribbon - not attached to medal) Victory Medal ( with ribbon - not attached to medal) Silver War Badge As Patrick was a farmer from Co.Clare, I think that it was the RMF that he originally enlisted in, as the RMF recruited a large jumber of men in the counties of Clare, Limerick, Kerry and Cork. All these counties are in the province of Munster so I'm naturally assuming that the RMF would have been the main regiment in this area. Would I be right in assuming this? The Star has incription on the back giving him a rank of PVT, while the Victory Medal's inscription (on the side)reads as: "3659 A.CPL .PJ Crowe R.Mun.Fus." If you look closely at the MCI , at the top of the rank column there is an entry: an x with a dot on top and the bottom of it beside A/Cpl. What is an A.CPL?Thre same as a LCL. Its just that I've never heard of A.CPL . "Assistant Corporal"?? The SWB was a number at the back of it - is this the SWB number? The number is 450897. Indeed I also thought that this amount of transfers were unusual. Patrick enlisted sometime in 1915 ( I think! - I have to get in contact with my god mother - she has a good handle on my family history!). A point about the different transfers - if he enlisted say in 1915 and was discharged in June 1918. He was lucky to get out alive - would the number of transfers have to do with his longevity in the conlfict? The longer he served , the more likelyhood of him been wounded or been transferred to different regiments as the Army saw fit? Any ideas? A question about the MIC - is the list of regiments in chronological order? The MIC states that he was a PVT in the RMF and a Lance Cpl in the other regiments, I doubt if he would have gone back in rank unless he was demoted due to ill discipline etc. It is intruiging about the other regiments - I would love to know more about it . I must start searching for his Service Records and hopefully I'll be lucky! He was a lucky man to get out of the alive - lucky for me and my family too!!!I wouldn't be here now if he hadn't!! He was even more lucky considering how he enlisted. As a farmer he was at the local fair in Ennis, Co.Clare. He and a neighbour of his sold some cattle. Patrick liked his pint so he and his friend went on the piss - he awoke next morning to find out that he and his friend had enlisted that night and he couldn't even remember doing it!! Very costly pints indeed!! Typically drunken Paddy!!!!!! Patrick died in 1933 from throat cancer - my father was only 6 months of age when he died. Would it have been possible that he may have been gassed and that the gassing eventually caused this cancer? Any ideas? It may have led him to been discharged? Just an idea. By the way the I spent a couple of hours this afternoon using a computer graphics package on the MCI - I was able to alter it andf bring the writing up and makes it much clearer. Thanks again. Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hello! Find attached a pic of Patrick Crowe in uniform. He has a rank of Lance Corporal on his uniform so is it safe to say that he must be been in any of the following regiments? Royal Welsh Fusillers Royal Irish Rifles Liverpool Rifles It strikes me that this uniform is not the typical uniform of the Frech theatre of war. Would it be a cermonial uniform for a special unioform or for another theatre fo war? Dardanelles, Salonika etc? Any ideas? Brendan PS: I will post a similar message in the uniforms section of the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hi Brendan A/Cpl is Acting Corporal Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 21 November , 2004 Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Hi Brendan On his mic is the reference number to the War Badge Rolls, using this reference you can access the original rolls at the national archives (cannot be done on-line) and these rolls will give you the date he enlisted which may help with other parts of your questions about his service. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 21 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2004 Thanks Steve! That makes sense! I'll have to get msyelf over to London for a couple of days or try and get someone to research it for me! Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 22 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2004 Hi Steve, By the way would A\cpl a rank between L\Cpl and Cpl? Its just that I have never heard of it! Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 22 November , 2004 Share Posted 22 November , 2004 Brendan As far as I am aware (but I stand to be corrected ) Acting Corporal is someone fullfilling the roll of a Corporal but not yet appointed to that rank. If, say for instance, the Corporal was injured and sent to hospital then a Lance Corporal would probably take his place in the roll of Acting Corporal until he returned. These rolls were also divided further as Acting Corporal Paid or Acting Corporal Unpaid. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMF Posted 23 November , 2004 Share Posted 23 November , 2004 Brendan: Assuming your grandfather was in the 8th (Service) Battalion of the Royal Munster Fusiliers, as is suggested by the date of his entry into the French theatre of war on December 17, 1915, he would likely never have worn the tropical kit he is shown wearing in the photo while a member of the 8th (Service) Battalion RMF, as the battalion only served in Ireland, England and France. The 8th (Service) Battalion RMF ceased to exist on November 23, 1916 when its surviving members were absorbed into the 1st Battalion RMF after the severe losses sustained by the 8th (Service) Battalion in the Battle of Ginchy on September 9, 1916. The 1st Battalion served in France for the remainder of the war. The picture of your grandfather in tropical kit might relate to an earlier time to his involvement with the RMF, when he served as a Lance Corporal in one of the regiments he is recorded as being a member of, during which time he served in the tropics. However,for him to have to served in the other three regiments before joining the RMF he would either have been transferred into the 8th (Service) Battalion RMF in the 1915 intakes from the overstrength regiments or he may have left the army for a time and later re-enlisted in the RMF as a private soldier during the Great War. As the 8th (Service) Battalion RMF for a period was reserved for recruits from John Redmond's Irish National Volunteers, is there a possibility that he was in the INV? What would help a lot would be a look at the Medal Register for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal (he was entitled to both these medals as well as the 1914/15 Star) at the Public Record Office in Kew, which would show the various units your grandfather served in in France in time sequence. My guess is that the medal card shows your grandfather's service in the various regiments in time sequence, with the most recent or last regiment he served with on the top (i.e. the RMF). It is also possible that your grandfather's papers may have survived the bombing of 1940 and if so microfiche copies would be available at Kew. Hope this helps. Bob Yeoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 23 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2004 HI ya Bob! According to a reply to a message I posted on the Interpreting MCI, the MCI details that his Victrory Medal and British medal are inscribed with A/Cp while the Star is inscrobed as a PVT with all the medal having the rank and Royal Munster Fusilier details but were actually issued from the command covering the Liverpool Regt. This suggests that the details are chronological and that Patrick began his service with RMF and finished up his service with the Liverpool Rifles. I am unsure if he was 'Redmondite'.According to a friend of mine whose grand-uncles served in the 8th (Service), a Captain in the 8th RMF and who was a 'Redmondite' was an atesting officer for his two granduncles. This suggest that one didn't need to be a member of the INV to sign up with the RMF. It is a point worth checking out though. His picture throws a spanner on the works! If his first theatre of war was france and he served with those other regiments - when was it taken? I'll have to check those other regiments to see where they served. Would Patrick have originally enlisted into the 1st Bat. RMF and for some reason been drafted into the 8th Bat.? Might the photo been taken during the planning of the Galli[poli landings? This is an extract for the following website concerning the movements of the Ist before the Gallipoli campaign: http://web.archive.org/web/20020202215416/...et.au/~finbarr/ March - The 1st Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, left Coventry in three trains on the night of the 15th for Avonmouth Docks, there they embarked with the 1st Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers on the three transport ships, "Ansonia', "Alaunia" and the "Haverford". Escorted by Royal Naval destroyers the transports sailed at 6.00pm on the evening of the 16th, arriving safely at Malta on the 24th and Alexandria Egypt on the 29th. After disembarking they proceeded to Mex Camp where vigorous training was commenced in readiness for the amphibious landings that were to take place on the Gallipoli Peninsula. April - The Battalion embarked on the transport 'Caledonia' on the 8th, arriving Mudros on the 10th. Every day was spent fine tuning the landing procedures. On the 20th the orders were issued for the landing from the "River Clyde". On the 23rd, the transport "Caledonia" with the Battalion on board left Lemnos harbour about 5.00pm, it's immediate destination was Tenedos which was reached at about 7.00am on the 24th. At 3.15pm the same day orders were issued to embark on the "River Clyde", by 7.30pm that evening all the troops were aboard. At 1.00am on the 25th, the "River Clyde" left her moorings and started the fateful voyage to her objective, 'V' Beach at Cape Helles on the Gallipoli Peninsula. REgards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 24 November , 2004 Share Posted 24 November , 2004 Hello Brendan, If your man did indeed serve with the 1st Munsters at the Helles landing at Gallipoli, he was very lucky to survive. In the few days around the landing, they took over 600 casualties. You need to get a look at the Medal Index Roll at Kew to get the actual battalions of the various regiments he served with - or you could put a post in the "I'm going to the PRO" section and hope that some kind forum member might look it up for you. I'm interested in the Ennis connection. I live a few miles outside Ennis. You are correct in assuming that most of the men who joined up in Ennis would have served in the Munster Fusiliers - though some served with other Regiments. Morval Ross is also an Ennis man. Regards, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 29 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2004 Hi Liam, Have been away since last Thursday and have just checked the forum. Great to see that an Ennis man has found this posting - Gwon The Banner!!! I'm from Nenagh in Tipperay - Gwon the Premier! Its a mystery indeed. The MCI states that he first entered his first theatre of war in December 1917. The medals that he received had his Mus. Fus details and the rank of A\Cpl and were iised from his last serving regiment which was the Liverpool Rifles. So I don't think that he served with the 1st Mus. Fus at Gallipoli. I must get on to the MIR @ Kew for more info! Liam, was there ever a book or account of people from Clare who served with the RMF? Is there any place where i can check this out? Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattycrowe Posted 29 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2004 Another development!! I just got my hands on the original photo of A\Cpl Patrick Crowe. In fact its a post card or 'Carte Postale'. There is writing on it from Patrick but it is very faint and hard to make out. He writes that he got the photo\post card taken for one franc - so the photo was taken and printed on to the back of the post card. So the photo was taken in France at a time unknown between 1916 - 1918. The leather webbing he is wearing is 1914 Leather Equipment c.1916-1918. I have to look into the possibility of this uniform is batallion order - I think this is what is says on the post card. Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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