Medal ribbons in monochrome

[dgibson150]

I have been trying to identify soldiers in B&W photographs, using their medal ribbons to help.

I think MC is relatively easy, as also DCM and MSM, but I have had problems today with DSO. I have stolen the photograph below from another post and just wanted to know if this is what a DSO ribbon looks like in black and white.

David

[Kitchener's Bugle]

More than likely I would say....................

[CGM]

When looking at WW1 black and white photos and working out the colours of medal ribbons the film used at that time should always be taken into account.

Do you have a date for the photograph. I ask because Orthochromatic film was almost universally used until around 1920 (then panchromatic started to take over) and orthochromatic film rendered certain light colours dark and other dark colours light.

As a rough guide:

Red becomes darker, maybe almost black, so black and red look the same.

Yellow becomes almost black

Green is middle of the range

Blue and purple become very pale

Not sure about pure white. Stays very light?

this link to a post by Andrew Upton shows the differences very well.

Oh, the link is not working. I will search out the thread. Sorry.

[charlie962]

post 3201 - 3207 on "postcards" may be what you are referring to

[CGM]

Thank you.

And I have found THIS POST which shows a comparison between B&W and colour.

[dgibson150]

Many thanks all, particularly CGM for the keyword "orthochromatic". The first photograph is probably 1915 -1920, as the award was received in 1915, and therefore orthochromatic.

I looked up "orthochromatic" in Wikipedia and it seems to mean "insensitive to red light". It can be simulated by taking a photograph with polychromatic film, but using a red filter. Armed with this hint I created a B&W photograph of a few medals on Paintshop Pro using their colour filter adjustment option. With 36%green and 64% blue, the adjustment which reduced the red element to the lowest I could get (< 1%), the results are as below. It certainly works for the DSO.

David

[Kitchener's Bugle]

Very interesting and certainly worth remembering - thanks for the advice!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 19/10/2015 at 03:15, dgibson150 said:

Many thanks all, particularly CGM for the keyword "orthochromatic". The first photograph is probably 1915 -1920, as the award was received in 1915, and therefore orthochromatic.

I looked up "orthochromatic" in Wikipedia and it seems to mean "insensitive to red light". It can be simulated by taking a photograph with polychromatic film, but using a red filter. Armed with this hint I created a B&W photograph of a few medals on Paintshop Pro using their colour filter adjustment option. With 36%green and 64% blue, the adjustment which reduced the red element to the lowest I could get (< 1%), the results are as below. It certainly works for the DSO.

David

Nice demo.

CGM's link doesn't work for me, but this does:

 

 

Edited 3 July , 2019 by spof

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks all, particularly CGM for the keyword "orthochromatic". The first photograph is probably 1915 -1920, as the award was received in 1915, and therefore orthochromatic.

I looked up "orthochromatic" in Wikipedia and it seems to mean "insensitive to red light". It can be simulated by taking a photograph with polychromatic film, but using a red filter. Armed with this hint I created a B&W photograph of a few medals on Paintshop Pro using their colour filter adjustment option. With 36%green and 64% blue, the adjustment which reduced the red element to the lowest I could get (< 1%), the results are as below. It certainly works for the DSO.

David

Yes, nice try, thank you.

However, look at the 1914 star ribbon and note what a complication shiny [or something] throws up for the blue edge. We have seen all sorts of problems whereby ortho film does not behave as we expect ........ some very strong yellows not showing as dark grey for example. Clearly a very difficult subject.

[dgibson150]

I managed to work the colour mix on the software a bit better. It is possible to eliminate red completely and choose whatever mix of blue and green one wants.

The blue/green mix doesn't seem to make a major difference. The left photograph is my first attempt, with blue/green 64/36, whilst the right photograph is blue/green 50/50.

[4thGordons]

It might be worth looking at the YELLOW component too (as orthochromatic films substantially alter the yellow also)

Since we played around with this previously I have managed a reasonable setup in Adobe Lightroom to simulate the effect I'll see if I can find it. Some of the most obvious images that demonstrate the colour effects are how the union flag is rendered.

Chris

[gordon92]

It has also been observed that the color rendering of YELLOW seems to be dependent on the reflectivity. See photo below of Gordon Highlanders. The rough material on the facing yellow cuffs of the doublets worn by the men renders the yellow dark. In contrast, the smoother material on the mounted officer's cuff renders the yellow much lighter and closer to true.

[MBrockway]

The relevant point is not whether the photo is monochrome, but whether the film used was orthochromatic or the newer panchromatic stock.

This post here shows the results of using an Add-On to the freeware GIMP graphics package that simulates the strange effects of orthochromatic filmstock - Experiments with simulating ortho- and panchromatic film stock

Here are some reference strips done by David () using the GIMP Add-on to simulate orthochromatic film stock ..

We came to the conclusion that the GIMP Add-on was not quite perfect, but gave a useful general idea of how hues would be rendered in orthochromatic stock.

Be aware though that yellows in particular are a bit unpredictable - sometimes they come out very dark, other times a more realistic light cream. It seems to be related to the detail of the precise white content, which does render as light. Gordon92's photo above illustrates this very well.

Chris (@4thGordons) then did a lot of work on how best to simulate ortho film using graphics package filters etc. All described in the same topic and a few others and mentioned by Chris here a few posts higher up..

Here are some DSO pics from the Pals in that same topic ...

*probably* panchromatic (background is a scarlet dress tunic) ...

*probably* orthochromatic (background is a scarlet dress tunic, now rendered almost black) ...

Edited 23 October , 2015 by MBrockway

[dgibson150]

MBrockway

I don't understand why my, albeit simplistic, approach to an orthochromatic result for a DSO is, in isolation, closer to your "probably panchromatic" photograph than it is to the two examples you give of "probably orthochromatic".

Might it be that there are further unknown factors involved, such as perhaps colour filters used by the photographer? In your examples you have effectively calibrated the colours by knowledge of the background colour.

David

[MBrockway]

MBrockway

I don't understand why my, albeit simplistic, approach to an orthochromatic result for a DSO is, in isolation, closer to your "probably panchromatic" photograph than it is to the two examples you give of "probably orthochromatic".

Might it be that there are further unknown factors involved, such as perhaps colour filters used by the photographer? In your examples you have effectively calibrated the colours by knowledge of the background colour.

David

Have you ploughed through all of that topic? There was a lot of discussion on the various colour rendering characteristics of the different film stocks, with particularly useful contributions from Chris.

[4thGordons]

I think that, after all the messing around (and I have spent a lot of time on this!) Grumpy's swatch image is really pretty good.

It has to be remembered that the ambient lighting conditions (which will be affected by the time of day, time of year, natural light vs flash(powder - then) will all have an impact. This can easily be seen on the colour cast in modern photos where tungsten lighting invariably gives a yellowish tone, (modern) flash gives a cold/blueish tone, and daylight can vary immensely. All of these, plus the nature of the material being photographed will have an impact on the rendering of colours... they still do.

Although I have dabbled.... I do not know to what extent (or if) coloured filters were used by photographers in the early 20th Century. That would obviously change things somewhat, but as far as I can see there is no option but to calibrate the pictures we are taking based on known colours of the objects we are trying to reproduce (like medal ribbons, tunics, kilts etc)

Looking at Grumpy's swatch and then comparing it French uniforms (horizon blue often looks almost white), darkened skin tones (because of yellows), etc... I think it is as good a guide as we are likely to get.

I wonder (and I will now explore) if anyone currently makes orthochromatic film? If so - that would be the ultimate experiment I think....

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Just to perhaps further the dicussion on the rendering of yellow ... this is the best example of the difficulties of the orthochromatic film that I have encountered.

The German soldier illustrated is wearing the Centenary Medal which bears a bright yellow, almost gold ribbon while the photo's always show it as being dark.

Note also that the medal itself is made of bronze material, which is a yellowish colour itself, but due to being more reflective tends to hold it's tone in the photo.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Just to perhaps further the dicussion on the rendering of yellow ... this is the best example of the difficulties of the orthochromatic film that I have encountered.

The German soldier illustrated is wearing the Centenary Medal which bears a bright yellow, almost gold ribbon while the photo's always show it as being dark.

Note also that the medal itself is made of bronze material, which is a yellowish colour itself, but due to being more reflective tends to hold it's tone in the photo.

Cheers, S>S

medal.jpg

What colours are the tunic/collars/cuffs here SS?

the reflective nature of the medal means that brass/silver/gold whatever is less likely to matter (cf buttons which are indistinguisable in tone to the medal but which I believe are silver coloured?)

The Kockarden are also a source of complicated colour issues of course!

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Haha Chris - I know where you are going with this.! You guys can work it out, you're the experts.! Suffice to say the kokarden is Bavarian ...

PS. I guess I will roll with it and answer your question - IMHO the tunic is 'blue' with bright red collar and cuffs, with the NCO stripes as shown.

Also the buttons in the photo 'should' be gilt ie. golden colour. Basically what you see in the photo below except the piping colour is changeable.

Cheers, S>S

[dgibson150]

Chris

It seems that Ilford still make orthochromatic film but in sheet form, so it seems you would really have to take a trip "back to the past" to recreate a 1910's photograph - special camera and develop the result yourself.

David