P. 1907 Bayonet - from approval to Dec. 1918

[JMB1943]

When a design was approved at RSAF, the pattern was sealed to govern future manufacture. Photos of the Pattern Room show racks of rifles etc. "the pattern was sealed"---is that govt. speak for no changes, or were a draughtsman's drawings literally sealed or locked away ?

(A) The P.'07 was introduced on Jan. 30, 1908. The Great War ended on Nov. 11, 1918.

Between those two dates, some 4,800,000 were made in the UK. I am trying to get a clear understanding of what happened between (A) and the start of production at the six commercial manufacturers in the UK.

Did the War Dept. send out detailed copies of the design to each maker ?

Did each maker send a draughtsman to the RSAF, Enfield to make a copy or take notes ?

Did the manufacturers actually see and handle the example bayonet that they would be bidding on ?

I would be grateful if you can shed some light on the process, or suggest reading material. Chapter & verse refs. would be appreciated.

Regards,

JMB

[Lancashire Fusilier]

JMB,

Here is a copy of a post I made back in August relating to another Pattern of bayonet, and I am sure this formula would also have been applicable to the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.

Regards,

LF

" In order to better and more fully understand all the various stages a pre-WW2 British Bayonet went through from concept to manufacture and finally it's issue into military service, through a mutual aquaintance, a fellow Bayonet Collector, I was able to consult with one of the world's leading experts on British Bayonets, Mr. Ian Skennerton, and during an almost 1 hour conversation with Mr. Skennerton yesterday, he gave me much information on what is actually an extremely complicated process, particularly during the period from 1860 to the 1920s.

I was able to discuss pre-WW2 British Bayonets generally, and I specifically discussed with Mr. Skennerton the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, and he confirmed the following :-

The process relating to the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, started with the Superintendent of the Royal Small Arms Factory ( RSAF ) at Enfield identifying the need for a new Socket Bayonet for the Martini-Enfield .303 Rifle, and then devising such a bayonet, which it was agreed would be made by converting stocks of the then existing Martini-Henry Pattern 1876 Socket Bayonet, for use with the Martini-Enfield .303 Rifle. With some 86,234 Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonets being manufactured exclusively at Enfield by way of this conversion, and it is important that these conversions produced exclusively at Enfield, are not mistaken for the ' Bushed Pattern 1876 Bayonet, Citadel Arsenal ' Socket Bayonet converted in Egypt, as that ' Egyptian ' conversion was an entirely different ' Pattern ' of bayonet and a different design of bayonet.

Once the RSAF Superintendent approved the new Socket Bayonet for the Martini-Enfield .303 Rifle, that approval was given an ' Approval Date ', and in the case of the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, that bayonet was approved on 4th October 1895.

The bayonet's ' Approval ' was then sent to the Pattern Room at RSAF Enfield where it was entered in the ' Pattern Book ', the date of it's entry into the Pattern Book ( 1895 ) then determined it's ' Pattern Date ', i.e. the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet.

The next step in the process was the drawing up of a detailed manufacturing specification and Blue Print for the new Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, known as the ' Specification for Manufacture ' which would then be provided to the new Bayonet's manufacturer, i.e. RSAF Enfield.

Detailed financial costings, and cost estimates for the new bayonet's manufacture were also drawn up

Once the manufacturing process for the new bayonet was completed, an example of the completed new bayonet was lodged with the Pattern Room at RSAF Enfield, and given a ' Pattern Seal ' which was attached to the bayonet, this example then became the ' Sealed Pattern ' for that particular bayonet, and the new Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet was then ready and available for service issue.

This new Bayonet was then added to the monthly Army Circulars containing the List of Changes which was sent to the Commanding Officers of each and every Unit, and in the case of the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, it appeared in the Army Circular for the month of February 1896.

These Army Circular's lists ( the List of Changes ) detailed all the new weapons, equipment, items of uniforms etc., etc., plus details of any changes or modifications to be made to existing items, or items to be withdrawn from service and discontinued, which would have been available to the Commanding Officer for order, or in the case of changes to existing items, implementation of those required changes or modifications, or the items withdrawal from service.

Those lists, the ' List of Changes ' and the headings attached to the items on those lists, differed from those used by the Pattern Room at RSAF Enfield, as it was important for the description of the item on the List of Changes to be a much fuller and more detailed physical description of the item so that its use and suitability for a particular military unit could be identified by the Commanding Officer and his Staff, that is why it is not unusual to see an item described in full military jargon in the LoC, for example :-

Loc No. 20298 dated 23 March 1916, the military jargon describing the new canvas Hand Grenade Carrier, is listed as :-

" Carrier, hand grenades L ( for Land Forces use ) Hessian with hook, with 10 pockets ( Mark I ) Khaki drill, Bucket type ( Mark I ) Waterproof canvas "

There then follows 1/2 a page of further detailed physical descriptions of the canvas Hand Grenade Carrier.

Each item listed in the ' List Of Changes ' ( LoC ) is given a ' Paragraph Number ' denoting where it appears on the list, known as it's ' Para Number ' in the case of the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, it's LoC Para Number was 8119 and it's physical description on the February 1896 List of Changes was described as :-

" Bayonet, Martini-Enfield L ( for Land Forces use ), Triangular, Locking, with Locking Ring and Screw, converted from M.H. ( Martini-Henry ) Long. "

This LoC description is then again followed by a 1/2 page detailed description of the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet.

It is very important to understand that a bayonet's entry in the monthly List of Changes issued with the monthly Army Circular, is really the last step in the process, and the purpose of the monthly List of Changes circular was just to let everyone know of new military items that had become available for service use, others that needed changing or modification, or other items which were to be withdrawn from service use.

By the time the LoC was issued, the bayonet's concept, design and manufacture had all been fully completed.

The official title given to a bayonet at the time it is entered in the Pattern Book, which was kept in the Pattern Room at RSAF Enfield, denotes the bayonet's official ' Pattern ', as with the Pattern 1903 Sword Bayonet, or the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet with Hooked Quillon, or the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet etc.

Whereas the items description shown in the monthly Army Circular's List of Changes is the physical description of the item shown in military jargon to help identify that particular piece of military equipment from the millions of pieces of military equipment then in service.

So in the case of the Pattern 1895 Socket Bayonet, that is it's official title as recorded in the RSAF's Pattern Book in 1895, which at that time, was held at Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield.

I am extremely grateful to Mr. Ian Skennerton for taking the time to explain this complicated process in detail to me, make detailed notes, and enabling me to then pass this information along to interested GWF members, and hopefully it clears up much of the misunderstandings relating to the process, starting with a bayonet's Concept, it's Approval, it's Patterning, it's Specification for Manufacture, It's Manufacture, it's Sealed Pattern, it's notification via the monthly Army Circular and List of Changes that this new bayonet is available for service issue, and finally it's issue into military service. "

[trajan]

When a design was approved at RSAF, the pattern was sealed to govern future manufacture. Photos of the Pattern Room show racks of rifles etc. "the pattern was sealed"---is that govt. speak for no changes, or were a draughtsman's drawings literally sealed or locked away ?

I do know somebody who is working on P.1907's and so this kind of stuff on an pretty full-time basis in what is left of his spare-time, but who looks in at GWF only occasionally. He may already have additional data on the matter to what you are interested in and to what LF has supplied, and if you want to take it further, I'll ask him if I can pass on to you his e-mail address. He has a full-time job and a young family, though, and so like some of us, not that much spare-time to devote to his hobby!

Julian

[JMB1943]

LF----that is a very lucid explanation of the process; so there was a 'Specification of Manufacture' which the makers would follow. Thanks for taking the time to put this down in black & white !!!

Julian---that would be very kind.

Regards,

JMB

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF----that is a very lucid explanation of the process; so there was a 'Specification of Manufacture' which the makers would follow. Thanks for taking the time to put this down in black & white !!!

JMB,

Apparently, a very important part of the process, as the ' Specification for Manufacture ' set out the actual physical dimensions and design of the bayonet, and also set out the Government's intended pricing for the bayonet's manufacture.

Regards,

LF

[Chasemuseum]

Hi JMB,

I recommend that you get access to a copy of "Australian Service Bayonets" by Ian Skennerton 1976 ISBN 0 959743812. Pages 25 to 44 are detailed notes on the manufacture testing and proofing of the P1907 bayonet. Ian's other serious book on bayonets "British & Commonwealth Bayonets" does not have this sort of detail on the manufacture but gives a wealth of detail on the development of changes from the trials through to the end of WW1 together with production details from the different manufacturers see pages 186 through 195.

Cheers

Ross

[JMB1943]

Ross,

I do have Skennerton's magnum opus on B&C bayos, but have not been able to locate a copy of Austral. Srv. Bayos. (other than about $125 on Amazon).

Could you let me know the following,

1) weight specification; I have seen 16.5 oz in Reynolds' book on the Lee- Enfield, but without a +/- range.

2) Spec. for dimensions of fuller

Regards,

JMB