wjones74 Posted 4 October , 2015 Share Posted 4 October , 2015 Hi , still on the hunt for a half decent example , this seems to fit the bill but opinions as more than welcome , I admit to having only the basic knowledge due to reading Chris (4thGordons) useful guide to the basics , here are a few images seem to be ok matching numbers not sure if the rear sight has the same serial yet! thanks for lookingRegardsWill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 4 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2015 Two more Thanks Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 October , 2015 Share Posted 4 October , 2015 That looks like a decent example to me. The pics are a little small but is it LSA (London Small Arms)? If so that might be seen as a plus as they made fewer than some of the manufacturers. Fingers have been trimmed on the front handguard by the look of it. One thing I cannot be sure of from the picture but looks like it might be the case, does the rear sight protector have the offset on the right side (ie is asymmetrical) - it should be but there was a simplified later(post WWII) version (Indian) that was not and looking at the last picture I can make out the offset. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 4 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2015 I think the rear sight is where the problem, (if that is the right term) may be. The seller is a well known dealer in the UK, and clearly knows the definitions and scale of price with regards to numbers and markings, as he clearly describes them on the other dozen or so SMLEs he has for sale. The omission of a pic and description, and indeed the inclusion of yet another matching attribute points toward there, (in my humble opinion ) being something not quite correct. There are apparent connections to WW2 in the markings, as they are briefly alluded to in the ad. For me, best case scenario, it matches, 2nd prize, the numbers are crossed out and renumbered to match, third prize, hey ho, it's not quite matching but it is a pretty lady! You have been amazingly helpful to a man who has just sold his entire medal collection to buy a few bits , the SMLE being one , I just wanted to be armed (excuse the pun) with as much info in a short space of time , not normally a winning combo that scenario but, alas! one I find myself in. P.S. yes the rifle is LSA which I also liked . I have sent you a PM with the site for better pics if you fancied a look , Kindest regards, Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 4 October , 2015 Share Posted 4 October , 2015 I recall reading that all SMLE rifles made in 1918 were surplus to actual requirement and never saw service in Theatre. Can anyone confirm this or just a false take? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 October , 2015 Share Posted 4 October , 2015 I recall reading that all SMLE rifles made in 1918 were surplus to actual requirement and never saw service in Theatre. Can anyone confirm this or just a false take? TT I do not know, but I would be surprised if none were issued (given the losses that happened in the German Spring Offensive.) The production numbers in 1918 for the big makers (BSA/EFD) is around a million rifles that would seem like a very large surplus but...... It might be buried somewhere in the production/supply data I suppose but I don't recall ever reading that particular claim. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 5 October , 2015 Share Posted 5 October , 2015 Thanks Chris. I can't recall where I read it but I was sceptical. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 6 October , 2015 Share Posted 6 October , 2015 Trenchtrotter.... in reference to 1918 manufactured SMLE's actually being used during The Great War. It would depend upon when the SMLE was made and how urgent the consignment was. In other words, were the SMLE's being manufactured for a specific order being readied for immediate despatch, or just being manufactured as ongoing war materials? SMLE production did not stop upon the Armistice signing , so there is no guarantee that any specific SMLE for 1918 actually saw active service. However, that thinking can be applied to any dated example.... taking into accout training centres, warehouse stocks, outlaying empire armouries, ships armouries, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 October , 2015 Share Posted 6 October , 2015 An interesting snippet on the 1918 production SMLE rifles, and particularly regarding the New Zealand contingents involvement in the war. After the armistice when they were being readied for the long sea-voyage home, they were ordered to hand in all their battle-weary old rifles. These were subsequently replaced with brand new 1918 dated SMLE rifles. This is why so many NZ marked SMLE's are of the 1918 vintage. The bayonet story is the same. Unused 1918 dated P1907 bayonets were issued at the same time. I have one of these NZ marked examples. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeB Posted 7 October , 2015 Share Posted 7 October , 2015 One thing that I notice is that the cocking knob on the end of the bolt is the "flat type" as opposed to round. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the flat knob post war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 October , 2015 Share Posted 7 October , 2015 One thing that I notice is that the cocking knob on the end of the bolt is the "flat type" as opposed to round. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the flat knob post war? No, the slab sided cocking piece was introduced during the Great War (5th August 1916). They were however also manufactured during WWII and whether this is one of those could only be determined by examining it (WWII versions had the manufacturer code stamped on them (often S262) as opposed to an inspector stamp.) There is also a purely WWII (post 1942) version of slightly different profile used by Lithgow/Ishapore, and a post WWII version produced by Ishapore which only has one broader groove and was used on the 2A/2A1 rifles and SMLEs. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 10 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2015 Decided on the LSA 1918 SMLE I looked at quite a few and just kept coming back to this one and I was fortunate to get a few quid off it , here are a few pictures of the markings, any pointers will be greatly received . Regards, Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 10 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2015 Few more Last few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 October , 2015 Share Posted 10 October , 2015 Looks good. Not much to add: If that is a P in a circle on the barrel that would probably indicate it is a replacement. If you ever remove the action from the foreend you may well find a date below the wood line on the barrel. Magazines numbered on the bottom would tend to indicate non-British service (UK did not number magazines generally - India often did either like this or on the spine of the magazine) I have not seen a stamps like the ?? 2KC or .303 Brit. (what is the symbol under it) before. US import marks have the calibre but also importer /source etc, British civilian proof marks have the dimensions of the cartridge and proof test - so I think these marks indicate service or civilian use outside of the UK at some point. I wonder if it might come from the batch of Italian (navy?) used rifles that was released some years ago -- Beerhunter or others may know - something tells me several of those I saw were LSA rifles too. (don't quote me on that!) I would be interested to identify the ?2KC stamp though as that is a new one to me. The rest of the stamps look like standard inspection stamps. I see both Enfield and BSA stamps. Does the cocking piece have any inspection stamps on it or just the number shown? It is hard for me to make out but this looks more like an Indian Inspection stamp than a WWII manufacturer code (is it IS over 299 (if so I think that is an Indian inspection/part), or S299? S 299 is wood and metal industries Seymour Rd Leyton E10) Overall I think you have chosen well! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 11 October , 2015 Share Posted 11 October , 2015 The cocking piece illustrated is the 1916 version. The WW2 item is flat to the rear with no rounded edges, and the top edge is rounded over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjones74 Posted 11 October , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2015 Thanks Sgt-Maj, on the bolt handle side it is marked C 211 the obverse is marked possibly S 299 , the breach and barrel are Ulm definitive nitro proof marked (eagle with N) that would have been marked between 52' and 68' as it is then marked with the cross hatched shield for MUNICH this mark was applied from 68 possibly right up to re unification in 1990. the 2KC mark that follows is still on going research . so, SMLE made during the Great War then issued to west Germany sometime in the 50s ? I am aware that this could be straying off topic for a WW1 forum , if it is too much of a stretch in eras could anyone point me in a direction that would be suitable for such questions ,as ever, your help is greatly appreciated Regards Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 11 October , 2015 Share Posted 11 October , 2015 I think the German marks simply show it was owned by a German gun enthusiast / shooter and was proofed in Munich to show it was safe to shoot. No military connection. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 11 October , 2015 Share Posted 11 October , 2015 The Germans had to mark calibre on the gun for re sale. The 2KC is a date code. I researched German proof marks on Google. I think sometime in the 70s or 80s they had to mark them as such. My Lebel has similar marks...eagle, Munich cross hatch shield, date code and 8mm lebel marked TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 12 October , 2015 Share Posted 12 October , 2015 Nice rifle. From what I've seen so far these 'modern' German proofed rifles are good selected ones. Like TT's my Lebel is so stamped - picture below showing 1976 Ulm stamp. Last time at the range I put 5 rounds into 1 & 3/4 inches at 100 yards, not bad for the original 1890 barrel. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 13 October , 2015 Share Posted 13 October , 2015 2KC is Feb 92 I think off the top of my head? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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