Ottoman Mauser

[garfyboy]

Morning folks

I purchased this yesterday on a bit of a whim really, I'm more of a medal man but liked the look of this rifle and what I believe to be Turkish writing, I've looked online and see that these were made from 1893 upwards, I would love to know what era mine is please, hoping it's Great War but I've no clue even after trawling the net

Here's another pic, can post more later if needed

[sawdoc34]

Hi,

looks siamese to me but sure a mauser buff will come along with more info.

Real nice looking rifle tho, good find

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Agreed definitely not Turkish (or Ottoman) and by the look of that script most likely to be Siamese. Can't check for model right now.

EDIT. OK got a chance to check the book and yes definitely the Siamese Model 1903. It has the Siamese 'Chakra' on the receiver.

Cheers, S>S

[garfyboy]

Thanks very much chaps, should I be dissapointed that it's not what I expected?

Seams a nice rifle anyway, did I overpay at £250?

Andy

[Chasemuseum]

The Siamese (Thai) government ultimately declared war against Germany and the central powers and sent a contingent to the Western Front. So this rifle does have a Great War link, albeit tenuous.

Cheers

Ross T

[Chasemuseum]

Also meant to add, regarding Turkish Mausers, there is a black powder model of 1887 with a tube magazine like a German 71/84. Then smokeless powder models in 7.65mauser, with model of 1890, 1893 and 1903.

Cheers

Ross

[Khaki]

Hello Ross,

I think it would depend on the rifle caliber and availability of ammunition as to whether or not they (the rifle) made it to F&F as part of a contingent, or whether they were issued something else on arrival. An interesting research area as the Siamese/ Thai's certainly used smle's, at least post war. However perhaps there was a Siamese Navy that used the Mauser, I really don't know but would be interested to find out.

Almost any weapon made or used during 1914-18 would qualify as Great War , for example the neutral nations that defended their borders and guarded internees eg., Switzerland, the Netherlands etc., they played a critical role in preventing the belligerents from spilling over into their countries.

I think you have a very nice looking rifle, well done.

regards

khaki

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Khaki,

There are a number of web articles on Siamese mausers. There is also a lot of confusion. The original rifle is a model of 1903, called a type 45 or type 46, based on the Buddhist calendar. To confuse matters some references (Ian Hogg – The Greenhill Military Small Arms Data Book) appear to convert Type 45 back to the western calendar as a model of 1902.

These rifles were purchased from Japan with deliveries over several years. Around the same time they also purchased a small quantity of SMLE No1 MkIII (references vary on delivery but from the rifles I have examined I would say delivery was after WW1). The Siam mauser arbitrarily called T45 fired a rimmed 8x50mm cartridge. With an overall length of 1,247m.

The next step is where dates become even more confused. In 1923 Siam purchased a variant of the T38 Arisaka to take a new cartridge 8x52mm rimmed. The existing supplies of mausers were also reworked to take the new cartridge. This appears to have been simply the reworking of the barrels and replacing the rear sights.

At a latter date (still pre-WW2) the mausers were fully refurbished and restocked. This included shortening the barrel and reducing overall length to 1,065m.

By all accounts, rifles not converted from 8x50R to 8x52R are very rare. The vast majority of rifles in collections are the restocked 1,065m model.

In 1939 the country changed the name from Siam to Thailand. It remained and still is a constitutional monarchy. They have had numerous military coups and new constitutions since WW2. Weapons belonging to the armed forces have the ownership mark shown in the original post. Weapons belonging to the police had a different mark. The police also commissioned several models of rifle but that was after WW2 using conversions of Japanese rifles.

Getting back to the rifle in the original post - it was made prior to WW1 and has had subsequent upgrades.

Regards the Thai contingent to the Western Front, this was only about 1,200men. The photos at the National Museum in Bangkok show them disembarking in France and some other photos in France and only show the T45 mauser. An article is available at http://www.siamese-heritage.org/jsspdf/1981/JSS_070_0n_Hart_MilitaryParticipationOfSiamInWW1.pdf

Were they re-equipped with alternative weapons in a logistically more sensible calibre prior to combat? I would expect yes but have never seen a photo to support this.

Cheers

Ross

[Khaki]

Thanks Ross,

Interesting read, and great research, always good to learn about little known facts relating to the GW. It would be interesting to know if there is a military museum in Thailand that could offer more information.

Sometimes we forget that a direct contact with a primary source can provide an enthusiastic response.

regards

khaki

[dman]

Also meant to add, regarding Turkish Mausers, there is a black powder model of 1887 with a tube magazine like a German 71/84. Then smokeless powder models in 7.65mauser, with model of 1890, 1893 and 1903.

[dman]

QUOTE: Also meant to add, regarding Turkish Mausers, there is a black powder model of 1887 with a tube magazine like a German 71/84. Then smokeless powder models in 7.65 Mauser, with model of 1890, 1893 and 1903.

Turks included clause in contract with Mauser starting with 1887 model that if Mauser made any improvements to design, remainder of contract would be filled with improved models

Starting with 1887 model (which used one of last black powder cartridges in 9.5 mm) there were IIRC 500,000 rifles and 50,000 carbines

The 1890 model was based on Belgian 1889 Mauser in 7.65 mm smokeless . The 1893 is based on Spanish 1893 which featured integral

5 round magazine which did not protrude below stock.

The 1903 is based on German Gewehr 1898

As an aside Mauser stored the leftover model 1887 parts - during WWI used these spare parts to build some 25,000 rifles which were issued to Wurttemburg Landsturm for rear area security (guarding prisoners/supplies/strategic points (railroad bridges, tunnels, etc)

[garfyboy]

Very interesting dman, thanks very much indeed

I will grab that little bit of hope that it's a Great War rifle

[Khaki]

One thing I have learnt so far is that the Siamese contingent included Air Force Pilots, ground and medical personnel. I didn't know any of that before.

khaki

[Chasemuseum]

_{Hi Khaki,}

_{Most of my time working in Thailand was in the 90s before Islamic terrorism was much of an issue (even then there were problems down the south west near Malaysia). Access to Thai museums was tricky, just because a museum is nominally open for public access that does not mean that it is ever actually open to the general public. Key museums were/are:}

_{The National Museum near the Royal Palace in Bangkok. - Easy access - prohibition on photos. This is not a military museum. Various interesting displays on Thai history. One display case only about 1.5m long of material and photos related to the Great War.}

_{Thai Air Force Museum - near the old Don Muang International Airport. - easy access - photos OK. Virtually everything is post WW1. A nice collection of early aircraft machine guns including a superb aircraft Vickers. I had camera troubles when I was there and most of my photos failed, but from memory the aircraft MG collection really dates from the 1920s and 1930s but with several guns of WW1 vintage but I would treat this comment with care as they may be 1920s improved models of WW1 designs.}

_{Army Museum in the Army headquarters building near the Royal Palace. Very difficult to get access in the 90s from an internet search still just as bad. Photography was prohibited inside the museum (may now be relaxed). There is a huge collection of c17 and c18 century artillery on the lawns outside, visible from the street but you are not allowed to approach the canons – photos OK. The museum is inside the headquarters building, occupying two rooms each about 8x8m on an upper level. All the labels are in Thai, nothing in western calligraphy. There is a good collection of rifles, pistols and bayonets. Several of the rifles I had never seen before or elsewhere. The soldier (NCO) in charge of the museum spoke almost no English but was insistent that these were all Thai Army models. They all appeared to have sights and general makings in Thai calligraphy. From a web search the museum appears to be larger now.}

_{Armoured Corps Museum up near Sari Buri, I was never able to get access.}

_{Chulachomklao Royal Military Academy – 100 year of the Royal Academy Museum. Up near Sari Buri. Never tried to visit.}

_{National Memorial Pathum Thani - near the old Don Muang International Airport. Have not visited – mixed reports about difficulty of access}

_{There may be others that I am unaware of. There are some private museums such as the one out at the River Kwai}

_Cheers

_Ross

<sub>Thanks Ross,

Interesting read, and great research, always good to learn about little known facts relating to the GW. It would be interesting to know if there is a military museum in Thailand that could offer more information.

Sometimes we forget that a direct contact with a primary source can provide an enthusiastic response.

regards

khaki</sub>

[Chasemuseum]

Hi dman,

would appreciate if you could post some more information on the Wurttemburg parts rifles - these sound rather interesting. Were they in 9.5 or 11 or 7.92mm ?

Cheers

Ross

QUOTE: Also meant to add, regarding Turkish Mausers, there is a black powder model of 1887 with a tube magazine like a German 71/84. Then smokeless powder models in 7.65 Mauser, with model of 1890, 1893 and 1903.

Turks included clause in contract with Mauser starting with 1887 model that if Mauser made any improvements to design, remainder of contract would be filled with improved models

Starting with 1887 model (which used one of last black powder cartridges in 9.5 mm) there were IIRC 500,000 rifles and 50,000 carbines

The 1890 model was based on Belgian 1889 Mauser in 7.65 mm smokeless . The 1893 is based on Spanish 1893 which featured integral

5 round magazine which did not protrude below stock.

The 1903 is based on German Gewehr 1898

As an aside Mauser stored the leftover model 1887 parts - during WWI used these spare parts to build some 25,000 rifles which were issued to Wurttemburg Landsturm for rear area security (guarding prisoners/supplies/strategic points (railroad bridges, tunnels, etc)

[dman]

The Wurttemburg Landsturm rifles were in 9.5 mm using the leftover parts from Turkish Mauser contract

Since these were rear echelon troops did not matter if using older black powder cartridges

[Chasemuseum]

Hi dman

The Wurttemburg Landsturm rifles, did the follow the standard pattern of the M1887 Turkish mauser or a modified design?. With parts originally manufactured for Turkey was there any Arabic script on the receivers or do the markings follow the usual form of Imperial German weapons?

I had asked about the 11mm as that was used extensively by garrison troops and had suspected that as a newly manufactured parts rifle that staying with a "standard" cartridge was likely to be essential for logistical support.

Cheers

Ross