No.1 Technical Training School, Reading 1917

[TimCornish]

My Uncle Reginald William King 48245 was at the No1 Technical training school at that time, I cannot pick him out of the photos as the definition is not that good and right hand side of the photo does not show all the detail. However i have attached a photo of him in uniform as an aircraft man in the RFC and a close inspection of the photo might be able to pick him out. He joined as an engine fitter and was a cadet there and became a pilot and was commissioned as a 2nd/Lt in October 1917.

Upon further analysis it seems this photograph is mismatched, it is predominantly staff, but one can assume the younger chaps on the front row, and throughout the photograph aren't staff. I'll go through the photograph later today and see if I can spot your relative.

Tim

[researchingreg]

Upon further analysis it seems this photograph is mismatched, it is predominantly staff, but one can assume the younger chaps on the front row, and throughout the photograph aren't staff. I'll go through the photograph later today and see if I can spot your relative.

Tim

Thanks Tim

[quemerford]

Quemerford, is the magazine available to view online?

I think excerpts of the magazines are, but I'd heartily recommend a subscription: you will NOT be disappointed!

[TimCornish]

Thanks Tim

Can't seem to find him in the photograph unfortunately.

[TimCornish]

Just heard back from IWM. It is indeed a copy of one they have in the Hendon archives. Good copy though, the frame which it is in is from 1917/18 too so must've done more than one development with it.

Tim

[Moonraker]

Update on the "Biggles building

I hope that the Mods will overlook the political content of the article, but I posted partly because of the dustjacket illustration. It's a little unusual in that it notes the author as "Flying-Officer W E Johns" whereas he was later billed as "Captain"; and even more unusual is the manoeuvre Biggles is carrying out; it must have been obvious even to the most naive schoolboy reader that he could not pull his aircraft out of the dive before it hit the ground.

(My eyebrows also rose when I read that "it was the school which taught amputee flying ace Douglas Bader to fly". Was it really still open when Bader joined the RAF in 1928? I wonder if there is conflation with the fact that it was to the nearby Royal Berkshire Hospital that Bader was taken after his crash in 1931.)

Moonraker

[Bernoullis]

Hi

Does anyone know the actual source that the RFC used wingless aircraft for taxiing experience in their training. There is evidence for the French using it in part, also Americans training in France, using aircraft with shortened wings, not wingless. However, I can't recall anyone mentioning it in RFC memoirs (I may be wrong of course). Jack Bruce in his Profile (No. 151) on the 'de Havilland DH.5' has a photo of fuselage of this type at No. 2 School of Military Aeronautics, Oxford, he labels it then as a "...D.H.5 fuselage in use as a taxiing trainer...", however, some years after this when he has the same photo, and another similar, in Windsock Datafile 50, it is now labelled as "These photographs show two being used for training in engine starting and handling.", so in the intervening period he had changed his mind.

So has anyone 'primary' evidence that 'Penquins' were used by the RFC?

Mike

I am a bit late into this subject, but I thought I would add a little to the mix. Jack Bruce's Profile (No.181, not 151) of the DH5 does caption the image as being that of "No.2 School of Military Aeronautics, Oxford." However, there is subtle change when accessing this image (Q 27249) on the Imperial War Museum website, where it states the image is "Cadets taxiing on a De Havilland fuselage at No.1 School of Military Aeronautics in Reading, at the time part of the Oxford University. Later it became the University of Reading."

The photo is pretty compelling but, sorry, I am not aware of any WW1 paperwork regarding " 'primary' evidence that 'Penquins' were used by the RFC?"

These 2 IWM photos are also of the "No. 1 School of Military Aeronautics in Reading" - Q 27250 and Q 27251 - but are of cadets of the SoMA, rather than airmen of the SoTT.

[MikeMeech]

I am a bit late into this subject, but I thought I would add a little to the mix. Jack Bruce's Profile (No.181, not 151) of the DH5 does caption the image as being that of "No.2 School of Military Aeronautics, Oxford." However, there is subtle change when accessing this image (Q 27249) on the Imperial War Museum website, where it states the image is "Cadets taxiing on a De Havilland fuselage at No.1 School of Military Aeronautics in Reading, at the time part of the Oxford University. Later it became the University of Reading."

The photo is pretty compelling but, sorry, I am not aware of any WW1 paperwork regarding " 'primary' evidence that 'Penquins' were used by the RFC?"

These 2 IWM photos are also of the "No. 1 School of Military Aeronautics in Reading" - Q 27250 and Q 27251 - but are of cadets of the SoMA, rather than airmen of the SoTT.

Hi

Sorry for the typo, it is 181. I don't think these DH.5s would have been very good for 'actual' taxiing training for pilots as they would have handled totally differently to actual service types which were not fitted with tail wheels, and service aeroplanes would have had rudders of course.

I think (as no one has come up with any real evidence) that the RFC did not use Penquin type aeroplanes in the training system.

Mike

[Bernoullis]

Mike, whilst the DH5 did have a tail skid, the wheel on the tail of the DH5 fuselage in the IWM photo looks rather Heath-Robinson. Perhaps this steerable tailwheel was fitted precisely because it had no fin/rudder to help with ground steering? As jack Bruce wrote, "The early trials of the aircraft indicated inadequate directional control, consequently a new fin and rudder of greater area were fitted." This fuselage, without either fin or rudder, would undoubtedly be a handful to manoeuvre on the ground and because of the low groundspeeds "The frontal aperture of the cowling has been enlarged to aid cooling of the engine."

Furthermore, perhaps the tailwheel and cowling modifications were given to the students themselves to carry out - to improve their knowledge/interest in the structure/rigging of airframes? Whether that was the student airman riggers of the SoTT, or the student cadet pilots of the SoI/SoMA carrying out the work, who knows? But with the worn-out/damaged/partial airframes, plus bits and pieces, that were passed on to training units as instructional items, I am willing to bet they could have gathered enough to cobble together enough to rig a tailwheel to modify this DH5 fuselage!

A steerable tailwheel would certainly have improved the utility of this DH5 fuselage which, together with it's working engine, would be fun for the students to get to grips with. This would improve their learning and appreciation, surely? As a retired flying serviceman myself, I can easily imagine a progressive ground instructor at Reading enthusing his students by having them rig a steerable tailwheel on something like this. It would be a breath of fresh air from dry lectures full of facts and numbers. I'm not convinced that the taxiing done in an airframe like this had anything to really do with flying training instruction. I am of the opinion it was just aimed at technical instruction. The flying training would come later.

You are probably right that the RFC, unlike the French, never used wingless, or cropped-wing, airframes for early flying instruction. But this photo surely confirms that many students 'had a go' at this sort of thing at the technical training stage?

[TimCornish]

Quemerford - do you still have the staff portraits for No.1 School of Technical Training/SoMA? 

[TimCornish]

Hot off the press - ID' one of the officers in the photograph as Ian Bonham Carter, the-then Assistant Adjutant-General of SoMA, later Air Commodore. Yes, he's related to Helena.. 

Edited 5 April , 2017 by TimCornish

[airman585]

I have a group photo of the Sergeants mess at the School of Military Aeronautics at Reading. There are 41 Sgts and 6 officers, all named. The senior officer is Lt Col  L M Bonham Carter.  My own grand father is one of the Sgts, he was an RFC fitter and was there as an instructor 1916/17. A member of the Berkshire Air Museum does give a talk about the School. It could be that some of those mentioned in earlier posts are also on my photograph.

 

Edited 6 April , 2017 by airman585

[TimCornish]

Would it be possible to have a scan of your photo, if that's OK with you airman858? Thanks. That would certainly help piece together a few things. 

 

Possibly your grandfather is on my photograph too (150+ serviceman). 

[researchingreg]

On 6 April 2017 at 18:53, airman585 said:

I have a group photo of the Sergeants mess at the School of Military Aeronautics at Reading. There are 41 Sgts and 6 officers, all named. The senior officer is Lt Col  L M Bonham Carter.  My own grand father is one of the Sgts, he was an RFC fitter and was there as an instructor 1916/17. A member of the Berkshire Air Museum does give a talk about the School. It could be that some of those mentioned in earlier posts are also on my photograph.

 

I would like to see the photo as well as my uncle might be in it. I also have a copy of a 2 page letter dated 24 Dec 1916 concerning pilot training and the numbers required at the school to Major Armes from Lt. Col. I M Bonham-Carter.