Private purchase KS98 sawback bayonet

[Kris1981]

Hi,

I ran across this kS98 bayonet. I don't usually collect extra-Seitengewehre or dress pieces, and have always concentrated my attention on service pieces; but I couldn't resist this one. It's my first dress bayonet ever, so forgive me when it becomes clear that my knowledge of these pieces is limited.

What it looks like to me is this:

BAYONET:
It's a long model kS98, sawback (34 teeth if I'm correct). It has wooden grips, fixed with three rivets. The bayonet looks like an imperial piece. I base this on two things:
1) because of the two headed Weyersberg & Kirschbaum logo which was used between 1883 and 19.. (1918?). Nazi period items are stamped with the later WKC logo, a single knights head instead of a double kings/knights logo.
2) because of the three rivets, not two.

However, I don't know if wooden grips were common then. I know early service kS98 bayonets had leather grips, but I don't have any idea what the options were for dress-bayonets.

The complete handle is painted black. There's some discussion about this, but black models do exist. I believe it to have been an option in the WKC catalogue for private purchases bayonets & knifes.

SCABBARD:
Doesn't look original to the bayonet. In fact, it's a Nazi-era M1884/98 bayonet scabbard painted in a thick layer of black paint. While exposing it to bright natural light I can (barely) make out '4? asw' on one side of the mouth and some digits on the other. I can identify 'asw' as E.& F. Hörster who produced these between 1934 and 1944. Also, the screw is mounted on the side so that's a solid giveaway.

So... Is this a legit WW1 private bayonet with a mismatched WW2 scabbard? Or is it something else?

[Kris1981]

Looking closely, the paint on the scabbard is not the same black as on the bayonet. I guess that makes sense.

I think I'll be on the lookout for a better fitting scabbard.

This is the exact same bayonet, with chrome plated finish:

http://militarycollectiblesinc.com/catalog/product_info.php?currency=EUR&products_id=3701

It's surely highly overpriced, but has the correct scabbard. Judging by the distance of the fuller & the sawteeth, it's exactly the same.

[trajan]

I do not claim to be extra knowledgeable on Extrawaffen, but yes, the logo and the three rivets is appropriate for an Imperial-period piece. Certainly, in my limited experience, and from what literature I have, although some WW1 period kA.98 had grips fasten with two rivets or screw-bolts, all the Weimar and 3rdR period ones have two rivets. The grips could be wood - walnut was used on service bayonets after 1913, and I have read that ebony was also used, I assume on Extrawaffen. I have a private-purchase battered kS.98 with a sawback and with what seems to be Weimar or later period grips of ebony or bakelite held in place with two screw-bolts.

Extrawaffen like this were certainly around in WW1, especially after 1915, when German field officers were ordered to leave their swords behind and wear a S.98/05 bayonet, photographic evidence showing that many chose to wear a kS.98 instead.

Yes, the scabbard is WW2, and asw is Horster. Is there a Waffenamt on the finial? As I understand it, it should be WaA/883 for 1940-42, or WaA/519 for 1942-44. The digits on the other side will be the bayonet/scabbard number, often in two lines, with a letter below the number. These were recorded in the soldier's paybook.

Hope this is of some assistance...

Trajan

[Kris1981]

Hi again Trajan!

Thank you for your comments. You are correct, I traced the order you mentioned:

19/07/1915 - regulations authorised officers and senior NCO's to choose between the sabre and the bayonet, whilst retaining their pistols.
08/01/1917 - order 2732/12 16 A2 abolished sabres, replacing them with a short bayonet.

Source: "German combat knives" by Christian Méry.

About the three rivets. Private weapons were continuesly being produced after WW1 aswell, so I thought this bayonet could have been post-WW1 / Weimar. If however all of these should have 2 rivets or screw bolts - mine could be dated WW1.

There are no visible Waffenamt markings on the tip of the scabbard. The layer of paint is simply too thick. So... someone painted a WW2 scabbard to accomodate this bayonet...?

[trajan]

... Thank you for your comments. You are correct, I traced the order you mentioned:

19/07/1915 - regulations authorised officers and senior NCO's to choose between the sabre and the bayonet, whilst retaining their pistols.

08/01/1917 - order 2732/12 16 A2 abolished sabres, replacing them with a short bayonet.

Source: "German combat knives" by Christian Méry.

About the three rivets. Private weapons were continuesly being produced after WW1 aswell, so I thought this bayonet could have been post-WW1 / Weimar. If however all of these should have 2 rivets or screw bolts - mine could be dated WW1.

There are no visible Waffenamt markings on the tip of the scabbard. The layer of paint is simply too thick. So... someone painted a WW2 scabbard to accomodate this bayonet...?

Hi Kris,

I have never seen the original text for the relevant orders, but according to German sources (as I read them), they are as follows:

Decree of the Prussian War Ministry of 19 July 1915 = Bayer. KA, AOK Süd, Bd. 12: All officers with swords, including regimental commanders, but not the officers of higher staffs, to be issued with attachable bayonets: balloonists and aviators to be supplied with the kS.98, all others the S.98/05 bayonet with sawback. [My German source does not mention pistols, as you observe above, but it is concerned with edged weapons only].

Decree of the Bavarian War Ministry of 1 February 1917, Bayer. KM, FZM 2889 (which I assume follows on from a similar Prussian decree): extension of the above regulation to officers of higher staffs from brigade upwards.

Decree of the Prussian War Ministry of 14 December 1917 = Bayer. KA, MKr. 4011: Those mounted personnel, drivers and supply troops armed with sabres or swords also to be given attachable bayonets.

As for 3-rivets post WW1, well, there is one post-1918 WK&C type, a Baden Polizei 'bayonet' with upper and lower quillons, that does have these, but all the Extrawaffen Weimar and 3rdR date that I have seen illustrated have two rivets or two screw-bolts.

The 'improving' black paint... I have a nice WW1 S.84/98 that has had its original scabbard liberally painted this way, and haven't quite yet worked out what to do about it... If you get yours off, let me know!

Best,

Julian

[Kris1981]

Well... I won't touch the paint on the bayonet, which I believe to be legit. Many fighting knives were offered in black paint in various catalogues at the time, so I believe this to be an option for this bayonet aswell.

The scabbard isn't original to the bayonet, and someone made it look like it is. I think I'll leave the paint anyway and look for a period scabbard.

I did compare it to my other 84/98 scabbards and the painted one has a slightly smaller (shorter) hook, without any visible horizontal lines in the iron. Probably inivisble because of the thick layer of paint.