P.'07 Scabbard---markings

[JMB1943]

I have acquired this item (round frog button) that is marked

W.J.H.

B

M/121

on both chape & locket.

The leather is stamped with a capital W sideways; B. H. C. (or O); 1943; 8.9 all on one line.

There is also an 'F', stamped upside down, to the right of the '8.9'.

Can the markings be identified, and was it originally made in '14-'18 or 1943 ?

Regards,

JMB

[shippingsteel]

Looks like you have a scabbard that was produced during WW2. Those Contractor codes are an immediate giveaway, as they were only used at that time.

So for the metalwork (chape and locket) the code M121 stands for a Midlands contractor, which in this case is W.J. Hill Ltd of Birmingham.

And for the scabbard leather, the letters will be B.H.G (not B.H.C.) and the code S9 (not 8.9) which stands for Barrow, Hepburn & Gale Ltd of London.

Cheers, S>S

[msdt]

Hi JMB,

M 121 is the WW2 supplier's code for W.J.Hill Ltd of Birmingham, so the 1943 date would be about right.

Also as well as the round frog button your chape and locket should have straight edges rather than the circular edges of WW1 scabbards.

Snap S>S, your post has just popped up, but posting as well due to straight edge info.

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

No worries Tony, the more the merrier.!

Yes I believe the term they used for the earlier curved edges on the locket and chape was "figured" edges ...

Things like the round frog studs and the straight edges on the metalwork was all done for reasons of economy.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Can the markings be identified, and was it originally made in '14-'18 or 1943 ?

JMB,

The WW2 period markings are correctly described, however, there is one marking which is typically seen on WW1 manufactured scabbards, which could suggest that your scabbard was in fact manufactured during WW1, and the locket and chape were subsequently replaced with WW2 coded hardware, and that the scabbard's leather was refinished at the factory of Barrow, Hepburn & Gale during WW2.

The mark which could indicate your scabbard was originally made in WW1, is the ' W ' mark, which if it is stamped on the back of the scabbard near the scabbard seam, is the mark used to denote that a WW1 scabbard had it's leather impregnated with heated paraffin wax and then polished.

This instruction to re-treat the scabbard leather with paraffin wax was contained in List of Changes para 26030 which was published in the Army Circular for the month of September 1923.

This LoC instruction is headed :-

Scabbards, sword-bayonet, pattern 1907 Mark II - Treatment of leather.

It then goes on to say that after the scabbard has been treated with impregnated paraffin wax it will then be stamped with the letter ' W ' near the seam to show the process has been carried out.

As this process was required 16 years before the outbreak of WW2, it could show that your scabbard was originally manufactured during WW1 and subsequently refurbished in WW2.

The first thing to confirm, is the ' W ' mark stamped on the reverse of the scabbard near the scabbard seam, or not ? this will help to date your scabbard correctly.

Regards,

LF

[JMB1943]

Thanks for all the information---very useful.

"The leather is stamped with a capital W sideways; B. H. C. (or O); 1943; 8.9 all on one line."

1) Yes, this line is on the reverse, parallel to and along the line of the seam.

2) Yes, with a x10 glass, BHC is BHG & 8.9 is S.9

3) Yes, the chape & locket have straight edges.

So possibly, 'F' = factory (repair) as in FTR on the SMLE's ??

Regards,

JMB

[shippingsteel]

The wax treatment of the P1907 scabbards was introduced in 1923, and any scabbard that was manufactured using this procedure was stamped with a letter W.

This process was continued through to WW2 which is why you see the W stamped on those scabbards with WW2 manufacture dates. The W is NOT Great War.!!

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

"The leather is stamped with a capital W sideways

1) Yes, this line is on the reverse, parallel to and along the line of the seam.

So possibly, 'F' = factory (repair) as in FTR on the SMLE's ??

JMB,

Many thanks for the confirmation, and based on your scabbard having the ' W " mark exactly where the 1923 LoC required it to be, I have no doubt whatsoever that your scabbard is not of WW2 manufacture, but was indeed manufactured prior to 1923, probably during WW1, was subsequently wax treated in accordance with LoC 26030 sometime in the latter half of 1923 or shortly thereafter, and then completely refurbished with new hardware, and the leather refurbished much later during WW2.

I agree that the ' W ' mark is not WW1, and I never said it was, what I clearly said, was that it was 1923, which is the date of the ' W ' mark LoC.

Regards,

LF

[msdt]

Hi LF,

Are we saying that the W is only found on old scabbards (or at least the leather) that have had this treatment retrospectively after 1923, and that a newly manufactured scabbard made after 1923 would not have this marK?

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

From the markings that have been previously described by JMB, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this scabbard was newly manufactured in 1943 as stated.

EVERY component of the scabbard is stamped with the Contractor codes that were in use during WW2, and the scabbard leather itself is stamped with the 1943 date.

A quick check of the P1907 scabbard contracts that were awarded during WW2 will show that on 25th August 1942, Barrow Hepburn & Gale were contracted to supply the Scabbard, P1907 Mk.II to the tune of 180,000 units.

I am certain that one of these 180,000 scabbards that were produced during WW2 is currently in the hands of forum member JMB1943 (how fitting.!) and is the focus of this thread.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hi LF,

Are we saying that the W is only found on old scabbards (or at least the leather) that have had this treatment retrospectively after 1923, and that a newly manufactured scabbard made after 1923 would not have this marK?

Cheers,

Tony

Tony,

No I have not said that, as besides referring to scabbards made in 1923 and later, the 1923 LoC specifically mentions those scabbbards " undergoing repair in Ordnance Factories " also having the wax treatment and then being stamped with the ' W ', which obviously refers to those Pattern 1907 scabbards made before 1923, as is the case with JMB's scabbard.

Also the fact that JMB's scabbard has new hardware and refurbished leather with WW2 markings would not be unusual for a scabbard that had undergone a complete factory refurbishment, as I believe JMB's scabbard has.

With the shocking shortages of equipment at the start of WW2, there was an extensive programme for the factory repair and refurbishment of many, many thousands of Pattern 1907 WW1 scabbards, and one Company, Jabez, Cliff & Co., alone repaired and refurbished 116,000 scabbards during WW2.

I am also very interested in the ' F " mark on JMB's scabbard, which could possibly indicate a full Factory refurbishment.

Additionally, in your post # 3 you refer to " Also as well as the round frog button your chape and locket should have straight edges rather than the circular edges of WW1 scabbards. ", it is a myth that a round frog stud and or straight edges on a locket and chape in themselves, means the difference between a scabbard being WW1 or WW2, as it is perfectly correct for a WW1 Pattern 1907 Scabbard to have both a round frog stud and straight edges on both the locket and chape. This is confirmed in the List of Changes para No. 17883 dated 19th November 1915 , which under the heading - Scabbards, sword bayonet, Pattern 1907 - modifications which may be embodied in future manufacture, states :-

" A circular, instead of pear-shaped, stud fitted to the locket. Ends of the locket and chape left square instead of being figured. " this being effective from November 1915.

Taking into account all these factors, it cannot be said that it is impossible for JMB's scabbard to have been an original WW1 scabbard completely factory refurbished in WW2, and was the case with many, many thousands of other Pattern 1907 WW1 scabbards, and with the ' W ' mark being implemented in 1923, I do not think it is logical that 20 years later ( 1943 ) at the height of WW2 they were still worrying about impregnating scabbards with the wax treatment, I am sure that issue was hopefully sorted out long before 1943 !

I believe that JMB's scabbard is a WW1 scabbard, completely refurbished during WW2.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The nice thing about this being a Forum, is that alternative views may be discussed.

Here we have an example of one view that a scabbard is WW2, and an alternative view that the scabbard is a refurbished WW1 scabbard.

Both views have been presented, and as readers of this Thread are intelligent adults, it is better to let the readers make up their own mind as to the origins of the scabbard, rather than have a backwards and forwards from the opposing views.

I have given my reasons for JMB's scabbard being a refurbished WW1, and I respect anyone's view to the contrary.

LF

[shippingsteel]

I do not think it is logical that 20 years later ( 1943 ) at the height of WW2 they were still worrying about impregnating scabbards with the wax treatment, I am sure that issue was hopefully sorted out long before 1943 !

You may want to do some research on that, maybe some follow up, checking of the facts, call it what you will. The process was an improvement in technology, so why would it not be used.?

You can continue to believe whatever you want, so I will not try to dissuade you. This information is really for others benefit. (This photo of Trajans was already available to view on the forum)

Shown below is another WW2 manufactured (1941) scabbard that has been been produced using the wax treatment of the leather. I think the letter W and 1941 date stamps are clearly visible.

Cheers, S>S

[msdt]

Hi LF,

I'm into markings, so like to try to understand their full significance. Having just had a look at Skennerton & Richardson's volume (British and Commonwealth Bayonets) they make reference to a date of 8th of March 1926 approving the black finish on 1907 scabbards. So the key point here is whether the W stopped being used due to a change in process, in which case any leather with a W is highly likely to be from a WW1 era scabbard. Actually I see in my notes that I have what I have called a WW2 scabbard with WJH/B marked chape and locket, so this weekend I will inspect it for further marks.

Re my reference in post #3 my point really was to highlight indications of WW2 production rather than definitively state that straight edges indicated only WW2 production.

We're 'snapping' again S>S!!!!

Cheers,

Tony

[shippingsteel]

Ha Ha Tony.!

Yes sometimes it is difficult to see the wood for the trees. IF this scabbard was indeed a refurbishment, as argued, than surely it must have been done in 1943 by BH&G.??

Why would it otherwise have received those maker codes and date stamp.? But if we look into the historical records (ie. facts) we see that BH&G were making NEW scabbards at that time under Contract, and were not involved in refurbishments at all, unlike some other Contractors of the WW2 period.

So logic would state that as this scabbard leather has a 1943 date stamp from the BH&G factory, then it MUST be a newly made scabbard and NOT a refurbishment. Simples.!!!

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

We are discussing two completely different types of scabbards, those scabbards actually made during WW2 and those scabbards which were factory refurbished during WW2, and with Jabez, Cliff & Co., alone repairing and refurbishing 116,000 WW1 scabbards during WW2, let alone the many, many tens of thousands of other WW1 scabbards which were factory refurbished during WW2 by other scabbard manufacturers, the numbers of factory refurbished WW1 scabbards ran into the several hundreds of thousands, and nobody can deny that those hunderds of thousands of refurbished scabbards existed, they are a fact.

Many of those hundreds of thousands of factory refurbished scabbards could potentially have a ' W ' mark which was applied after September 1923, as to when that ' W ' mark was actually applied is unfortunately not shown on the scabbard, the only certainty, is that the ' W ' mark dates from the Autumn of 1923. Nothing shown thus far contradicts that fact, and even photographs, do not always tell the whole story.

So far, I am the only one offering documented proof positive to support my opinion, in the form of the 1923 List of Changes LoC 26030, part of which required that pre-1923 ( probably WW1 ) bayonets that came in for factory repair and refurbishment had the ' W ' mark stamped on the reverse of the scabbard close to the seam, which means those scabbards referred to in Loc 26030 had to have been manufactured before 1923 ( probably during WW1 ). Those denying that fact, or arguing against that fact, are not challenging myself, they are arguing against the List of Changes in War Material Para 26030 published in the Army Circular for the month of September 1923.

That which is certain, is that Pattern 1907 scabbards were made new during WW2, and hundreds of thousands of WW1 Pattern scabbards were factory repaired and refurbished during WW2 including those which were stamped with the ' W ' mark as early as the Autumn of 1923, one such example I believe to be JMB's scabbard. Had JMB's scabbard not had the ' W ' mark stamped on it's seam, I would not have posted to this Thread.

Unfortunately, nothing is ever as simple as it may seem, and again there are those who may think that JMB's scabbard was manufactured during WW2, and there will be those like myself who think that it is a factory repaired and refurbished WW1 scabbard, and I doubt that anything else can be added to change that.

LF

[4thGordons]

Looking through the published listing of contracts for WW2 refurbishments - as far as I can tell the 116,000 mentioned above were the ONLY repairs/refurbishments contracted. So I am far from certain that there were "hundreds of thousand" of refurbishments/repairs. I can find mention only of this contract for this 116,000. Perhaps the contracts were not recorded or researchers have missed them?

What was not mentioned when that number was cited above was that there were 754,906 new scabbards produced.

If this accounting is correct, on simple probabilities there is ceterus parabus an almost 7:1 likelihood of it being a newly produced WWII scabbard rather than a refurb.

Add to that there are no JC&C marks, and further that the JC&C contract was dated 24/6/1944, while on the scabbard in question there are BH&G and WHJ marks (who produced a good portion of the 754,000 new scabbards)

In my mind the preponderance of evidence (speculation about the meaning of an unidentified F stamp notwithstanding) leaves me entirely convinced this is a WWII produced scabbard.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

The leather is stamped with a capital W sideways; B. H. C. (or O); 1943; 8.9 all on one line.

There is also an 'F', stamped upside down, to the right of the '8.9'.

In my mind the preponderance of evidence (speculation about the meaning of an unidentified F stamp notwithstanding) leaves me entirely convinced this is a WWII produced scabbard.

Chris, I am glad you mentioned that "F" again as it must have triggered something in the old memory banks.! I woke up this morning knowing exactly what that marking could be.

We are at a disadvantage with this thread, as we are without a photo to work from. But I was able to fill in the gaps in the Original Post, because I have seen these things before.

And it is the same with this errant "F". During this period the inspection markings often included a sideways letter E which was part of the standard Crowned inspection marking.

The E as we all know originally stood for a RSAF Enfield based inspector. These later period inspection markings have a much larger Crown being more elongated than normal.

I post this photo below courtesy of forum member Sawdoc. Aleck once sent me photos of this scabbard amongst others, a while back when he was asking me for some advice.

As you can see it is another scabbard that was made by BH&G during WW2 (1939) but this time it is of P1888 type. The Contractor codes were not in use at that time of the war.

From the right you can see the Broad Arrow over a '39, then the Crowned inspection marking with the "sideways letter E" shown under the arrow. And from left the BH&G 1939.

You can easily see how it could be mistaken for "an F, stamped upside down".! Obviously the remainder of the inspection marking is obscured, possibly a very faint stamping.?

I hope this helps explain another part of this "great scabbard mystery" ... PS. And for the record I will say again, JMB1943 has a scabbard that was newly made in 1943.!

Cheers, S>S

[JMB1943]

In the case of the errant 'F', here are relevant photos.

The upper photo shows the "sideways W; BHG; 1943; S.9" (the upside down 'F' is just off-screen to right).

The lower photo has been rotated to show the 'F' right side up.

I think we can all agree that this is clearly/deeply stamped as 'F', and is not a corrupted 'E'. If not, you have to trust that it is indeed 'F' in the flesh.

This is why I wondered about F = F(actory refurb.), and raised the question of whether the scabbard was made in 14-18 or in 1943.

Regards,

JMB

P'07 Scbbd 1943.docx

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I too am extremely pleased that Chris mentioned the ' F ' mark again, and whilst it is easy to generalize and be overly simplistic using percentages etc., the real secret to the origin of JMB's scabbard is that ' F ' mark, which may indicate that a scabbard was originally made during WW1, and was subsequently factory refurbished.

Whilst the Jabez, Cliff & Co. WW1 scabbard repair and refurbishment contract is the one usually quoted due to it's substantial size ( 116,0000 scabbards ), it is extremely likely that many other WW1 scabbard makers took on refurbishment work to aid the war effort, including Barrow, Hepburn & Gale. although on a smaller scale.

JMB's ' F ' mark looks to be a stand alone clear F marking ( see attached photograph which I hope JMB will not mind me posting ), separately applied as an individual marking, due to it's size and font, and meant to indicate something ?, rather than being part of a sequence of markings, and it is possible that mark is a Factory Refurbishment mark.

If it is proven that the ' F ' mark is indeed a factory refurbishment mark, that could change matters significantly.

This is not about scoring ' Brownie Points ' or trying just to prove that someone is right and someone is wrong, but rather to establish historical facts.

So far, several important historical facts have been established, that the ' W ' mark was initiated in 1923 with LoC 26030, and although initiated in 1923, it looks to have been continued through to WW2, that is important. We know that some 750,000 new Pattern 1907 scabbards were made during WW2 ( Skennerton & Richardson ), that is also important. We know that there was an extensive program to repair and refurbish WW1 scabbards during WW1, that is important.

Hopefully, the true meaning on the ' F ' mark shown on JMB's scabbard can be established.

LF

[JMB1943]

It does occur to me that my scabbard does not bear either a crowned inspection mark or a broad arrow for Govt. acceptance, as are shown in the photo posted by S>S. Perhaps it was kept by BGH Co. as a demonstration model or was delivered to another govt. who did not inspect/issue.

Regards,

JMB

[shippingsteel]

I think we can all agree that this is clearly/deeply stamped as 'F', and is not a corrupted 'E'. If not, you have to trust that it is indeed 'F' in the flesh.

This is why I wondered about F = F(actory refurb.), and raised the question of whether the scabbard was made in 14-18 or in 1943.

Thanks for adding those images JMB. That makes a huge difference.! (I have copied and pasted the images below for easy viewing for all forum members)

And you are right, it is not anything to do with an inspection marking as I suggested earlier. It does look like a production marking added during manufacture.

And the first image shows that the letter W is fully part of the BHG 1943 S9 production stamping, not freestanding as an earlier such marking would appear.

And yes, it is true that the Wax treatment of P1907 scabbards continued on right through to WW2, and that W is commonly seen on WW2 made scabbards.

I think if you showed this scabbard marking around amongst a group of knowledgeable collectors, you would get the same answer. This is a real easy one.!

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

It does occur to me that my scabbard does not bear either a crowned inspection mark or a broad arrow for Govt. acceptance, as are shown in the photo posted by S>S. Perhaps it was kept by BGH Co. as a demonstration model or was delivered to another govt. who did not inspect/issue.

OR, they stopped using a regular Crowned inspection marking, and replaced that with a simple letter E ... which may or may not have had its 'foot' broken off from use.!

In regard to the other suggestion, there is NO doubt that this scabbard was produced for the British government under contract during WW2. The Contract is a "known".

Cheers, S>S