Etool helve carried with Ross rifle

[robth100]

I am hoping someone can enlighten me. For Canadians carrying the Ross rifle and wearing 08 web equipment, how was the etool helve carried? The Ross bayonet leather frog doesn't allow itself to the addition of the strap for attaching the helve carrier and I can't see how the Ross bayonet could be removed from it's frog (being stapled) and lack of a stud to be inserted into the 08 frog. Did they simply carrier an empty 08 frog with helve carrier in addition to the leather Ross frog? Thanks in advance!

[trajan]

At the back of my mind - isn't there a Canadian frog with a built-in helve carrier?

[John Thorne]

Pattern 1913 Web Equipment attached the entrenching tool head and helve carriers to the the water bottle carrier. This pattern was used by the Canadians, but only after the original supply of Canadian Pattern 1908, modified by use with the Ross rifle, was delivered. This version of '08 was introduced by Canadian List of Changes Entry 447, dated 1 September 1910. Interestingly, it did not include any provision for carriage of the Sirhind tool, which does not appear to have been adopted in Canada until after the special Canadian '08 was delivered. I don't know when it was introduced into Canada, but it would have been no later than January, 1913, when the Pattern 1913 equipment was introduced by C. L. of C. 1203. The ludicrous McAdam shield shovel (officially the "entrenching shovel, Canadian pattern") was not introduced until 1915. When Canadian soldiers arrived in England in 1914, at least five battalions were carrying Canadian Pattern 1908. They would almost certainly have been issued Sirhind tools and carriers before proceeding to France, just as the Canadian troops who arrived with Oliver valise equipment were issued with Patt. '08 from British stores.

It's also worth noting that neither the original Canadian Pattern 1908 nor Canadian Pattern 1913 had a web bayonet frog (even though the Pattern 1913 Fitting Instructions showed one). The leather Ross bayonet scabbard had an integral frog, and C. L. of C. 447 specified "Scabbards, bayonet, Ross, pattern '08, with lengthened loop." These were leather scabbards modified or newly produced with larger belt loops, to accommodate the 3-inch wide Patt. '08 belt. The standard Ross scabbard loop fits the 2 1/4-inch Patt. '13 back adjustment strap without any modification,

[Chasemuseum]

At the back of my mind - isn't there a Canadian frog with a built-in helve carrier?

The Canadian frog in question was part of the P1899 Oliver equipment and made to carry the P88 bayonet. The integral loop was for an entrenching tool handle of a tool which was ultimately never adopted and not placed in production. The frog remained in extensive use up to WW1 until Canadian units were re-equipped with the various models of the Ross rifle.

There were a small number of Ross bayonets as part of the ships equipment of HMS Canada (yes Turkish interest) where the scabbards were modified in the UK with the top chape of a P88 scabbard fitted so the bayonets could be used in the web frog of a standard set of P1908 field equipment.

Cheers

RT

[trajan]

The Canadian frog in question was part of the P1899 Oliver equipment and made to carry the P88 bayonet. ...

Thanks, that is clearly what I must have been thinking of.

[Oldsmithy]

This is the Oliver pattern discussed above

[19mac79]

i owned a Ross bayonet where the throat/frog had been replaced by an SMLE 1907 scabbard throat to fit 08 equipment. Im good friends with the guy whom I sold it to and will request a photo from him.

cheers

Andy

[Oldsmithy]

I still have yet to see any pictures or details on what was actually carried in the 2nd pouch, and its use as a helve carrier is still open to discussion, unless someone comes up with documentation or pictures. I have done several searches trying to satisfy myself as to what it was supposed to carry while researching my book on frogs but have yet to find anything 

[Mike_H]

The attached, published years ago in Guns Review by the late Tony Carter, may be of interest on this subject. I regret it's a scan of an ancient photocopy and the photo is very poor!

Mike 

Edited 18 June , 2017 by Mike_H
typo

[Mike_H]

Smithy

Re the Oliver frog - Jack Summers in "Tangled Web" says the second loop was for "the handle of a pick, or the two pound axe." 

 

Mike

[Oldsmithy]

got the original article and Indian examples without straps :-(  never managed to pick up one with the straps intact.

 

[Gspragge]

It would appear that 08 pattern frogs and helve carriers were issued and the troops removed (or the armourers, this would be ordered not haphazzard as sometimes suggested) the loop from the Ross scabbard. The scabbard held well enough in the web frog and it was used this way. It would be these loopless scabbards that got to the Royal Navy that had the tops replaced with the 03 pattern tops with stud. Scabbards with the loop on were used as is. 

(Repro webbing)