Corporal F.A. Pate

[MotherMave]

Can anyone give any information about a Corporal F.A. Pate, from the Welsh Guards please? I looked up the Long, Long Trail and it seems that they were created in 1915. Our local Record Office has been given a photo of a group of men, they have no insignia on their collars and the person who gave it said it was "Corpl. F.A. Pate's Squad, Welsh Guards, 1915". The scenery around looks British - Green trees, shrubs etc, with fencing in the background. (Sorry I cannot add the photo, which would have been helpful, but it would be too big to attach, I would think) They could have been at the training camp as they had just been formed. The photo had been taken by B....... Brothers - Photography brothers in Caterham, who took many photo's of events in the area. Any help to giving some provenance to the photo would be great. Many thanks in advance. Mavis Williams

[Coldstreamer]

guards squad photos are quite common (well coldstream ones are)

quick look doesnt show a MIC but if he was a training NCO he may well have stopped at home - that would suggest to me he served else where before their creation and transferred in

[IPT]

I've found a 1924 mention of a Sgt F A Pates, Welsh Guards, playing rugby for the army against the RAF.

There's 314 Sgt F Pates, Welsh Guards, born Cardiff. This is his NA medal card - 314 Frederick Pates - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4545975

There is a Frederick Arthur Pates, born Cardiff in 1894.

[MotherMave]

Thank you so much, every little clue may help. Kind regards, Mavis

[PRC]

A Frederick Arthur Pates was baptised on the 14^th June 1894 at St Pauls, Grangetown, Glamorganshire.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCYJ-9V7

There is a 16 year old Frederick Arthur Pates,born Cardiff and working as a Labourer at a Slate Works, who was recorded at 17 Ferry Street, Cardiff, on the 1911 census. This is the household of his parents, George, (aged 64 and a Naval Pensioner and Night Watchman at Park who was born Athlone, Ireland) and Emily, (aged 38 and from Broadelyst, Devonshire). The couple have been married 22 years and have had 9 children, of which 8 were then still alive.

The eldest child in the household, George (28), must come from a previous marriage and so is only a half-brother to Frederick. George was born Netley, Hampshire and works as a Labourer at a Rope Works.

The other children are:-

William Henry……………….aged 21………….born Exeter, Devonshire……….Laundryman

Annie…………………………aged 11………….born Cardiff

Lilian Olive…………………...aged 8…………..born Cardiff

Ruby Blanche………………..aged 6……………born Cardiff

Ivy Laura……………………...aged 3……………born Cardiff

There is no obvious marriage of a Frederick Arthur Pates in England and Wales in the Civil Records and nothing in the GRO Index of British Nationals Armed Forces Marriage.

May be a co-incidence but the death of a 71 year old Frederick A Pates was recorded in the Southend on Sea District of Essex in the October to December quarter of 1965.

From “History of the Welsh Guards” by G H Dudley Ward DSO MG, London 1920.

“The selection of the battalion staff involved far-reaching appointments — a mistake in sergeant-major, drill- sergeants, or company sergeant-majors is difficult to rectify when once these ranks are confirmed. An established battalion has the great advantage of watching each man from recruit stage upwards ; a new battalion must take a number on trust, or at best on second-hand recommendation. To fill the more important warrant and non-commissioned ranks, it was decided to call for volunteers from the Grenadier, Coldstream, and Scots Regiments of Guards, and also permission was obtained from Sir Henry Streatfeild, commanding the Grenadier Guards, to appeal to Welshmen who had joined the Grenadier Guards and were at the recruit depot at Caterham. In answer to this appeal made by Sir Francis Lloyd 303 men, including 40 non-commissioned officers, transferred. A similar appeal to recruits at Caterham produced 200 Welshmen.

The Regimental Roll was started, and as Lieut.-Col. Murray Threipland was the first officer to join the Welsh Guards, so the Regtl. Sergt.-Major W. Stevenson (from the Scots Guards), became No. 1.

The problem of where to house and assemble the new regiment was solved by the allotment of a portion of the White City — that garish collection of white plaster buildings raised, by Imre Kiralfy, on some vacant ground at Shepherd's Bush for the holding of a kind of annual fair and exhibition. “

And

“Now began the real business of training men at the White City. Recruiting presented no difficulties. Stories of the hard winter the army had experienced and was still going through in France and Belgium had succeeded those of the retreat from Mons and the first battle of Ypres, and seemed to be an excellent reason for a continual stream of volunteers. While men were being medically examined and sent to Caterham, and passed from Caterham to the White City to continue their education in drill and the use of rifle — on the very ground where the populace used to " wiggle-woggle " and " water-chute " to the strains of brass bands and under the glow of a hundred thousand coloured electric lights —

the bitter and costly battle of Neuve Chapelle was being fought (March 10th), resulting, after three days of fierce fighting in driving the enemy back to a depth of 1,000 yards on a front of 3,000 yards ; and Hill 60 was being wrested from the Hun (April 17th) by self-sacrifice and the use of " jam- tin " bombs. Recruiting was easy, and the only advertisement required was such as would draw the Welshmen who wished to join the army into the new Welsh Guards. With this object in view a recruiting campaign was started throughout Wales, in which Sir Francis Lloyd engaged himself and also Lieut. Rhys Williams, who had transferred from the Grenadier Guards, and was well equipped with the silver and persuasive tongue of a successful barrister and budding politician for a jaunt of this nature.

On April 28th, when the second battle of Ypres had been raging a week, the battalion consisted of 31 officers and 1,316 other ranks, and was transferred to Esher, where it was quartered in the racecourse stands at Sandown Park. “

And

“On May 23rd Italy entered the war — on June 4th the battalion returned to London and took up quarters at Wellington Barracks. This change of quarters meant that the battalion now took up as a whole the routine and duties of a Guards Battalion in the West End of London. The Commanding Officer might well be proud of this record. The strength of the battalion, including the depot at Caterham, was then 47 officers and 1,610 other ranks. “

Finally

“In the early morning of the 17th (August) the battalion left Waterloo Station for Southampton and France. One of the few civilians on the station to see them off was Mr. John Burns, who, though a man of peace, has ever been a friend of the soldier. No doubt as he watched them he asked himself the same question as Palmer when the battalion was being photographed a few days before leaving when the " artist '' had said " Thank you”, Palmer turned round, and, thrusting his great jaw out at the " group” said, " I wonder how many of us will be alive in six months' time ? "

https://archive.org/stream/historyofwelshgu00dudl/historyofwelshgu00dudl_djvu.txt

[Guest]

Hi,

I realise this post is way out of date but this is my 2nd great Uncle.  I would love to see the photo you have. The information given by the other contributors is correct.  He lived in Cardiff Bay and his father worked in the docks.  My mother says he played rugby for Wales and she says she remembers seeing his cap but I can't seem to find any info on this online.  That would tie in with what IPT says about him playing rugby too.  I can't find a reliable marriage for him online.  I have also been told that he owned a hotel after the war. 

On 25/08/2015 at 17:30, MotherMave said:

Can anyone give any information about a Corporal F.A. Pate, from the Welsh Guards please? I looked up the Long, Long Trail and it seems that they were created in 1915. Our local Record Office has been given a photo of a group of men, they have no insignia on their collars and the person who gave it said it was "Corpl. F.A. Pate's Squad, Welsh Guards, 1915". The scenery around looks British - Green trees, shrubs etc, with fencing in the background. (Sorry I cannot add the photo, which would have been helpful, but it would be too big to attach, I would think) They could have been at the training camp as they had just been formed. The photo had been taken by B....... Brothers - Photography brothers in Caterham, who took many photo's of events in the area. Any help to giving some provenance to the photo would be great. Many thanks in advance. Mavis Williams

 

[Coldstreamer]

Hello, 4 years isn't old post 😀

 

Not sure if new posters can send pm so have contacted mothermave for you

Edited 10 February , 2019 by Coldstreamer

[MotherMave]

Thanks for getting in touch, although I have bad news, I have mislaid the photograph!   At least I cannot think where it is as there was no follow up on this at the time and he wasn't one of the "Fallen" Soldiers I was researching, although the photograph intrigued me, it would have been nice to have been able to identify the men on it.    I will keep looking as there is now 4 more years research and papers since then!   My apologies.    Will keep it in mind and send if I find it.    Regards, Mavis

[Coldstreamer]

Might be worth setting up a search on ebay to notify you if a postcard turns up there 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 09/02/2019 at 16:32, Jojo said:

My mother says he played rugby for Wales and she says she remembers seeing his cap but I can't seem to find any info on this online.

I fear this is incorrect. Well, not Union anyway. Maybe  East Wales, or Cardiff ?

Nobody with the surname 'Pate' or 'Pates'  has  ever played for Wales.

He would have appeared in the alphabetic list between Pask. AEI and Payne.GW.

Sorry.

 

[IPT]

There's are numerous mentions of a Sergt, F A Pates", Welsh Guards and London Welsh, in the early 20's.  He also played for the Army team.

 

It sounds like he was on the fringes of the Welsh team at least.

 

16 January 1923 - Western Mail - Cardiff,

 

DISAPPOINTMENT. LONDON WELSH AND THE W.R.U. SELECTION.

 

Although the members of the London Welsh R.F.C. are disappointed that they have not a single representative in the Welsh team, they will be present, in force, at Twickenham, to cheer Wales to victory. It was thought that the consistent good form of J. G. Stephens would again get him into the side and both ??wyn Francis and Marsden Jones are now playing better than ever.

 

It is acknowledged that the Welsh Union have any amount of excellent forwards at their disposal. but Sergt. F. A. Pates, who, it is understood. was a success in the trial, is now fourth reserve. A sound scrummager, very fast, and always as fit as the proverbial fiddle. he was just the right type of player for Twickenham. 

 

 

[PRC]

As he was playing for the British Army in 1924 he could potentially have taken part in the compettion in 1919 between sides from the British Army, RAF, French and Commonwealth Countries. As the relevant Rugby Union associations recognised them, and it's sometime billed as the first Rugby World Cup, it may be that caps were issued for those games.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Army_rugby_team_of_1919

 

Additionally there were various representational sides during and immediately after the war and although Lloyd George's pet project of a Welsh Army may not have come to pass, there could have been a "Welsh Army" side.

 

If he was still in the Army in 1924 then his service record should be held by the Ministry of Defence. The relevant page on requesting a record is here:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

Lots of threads on this forum with helpful information and user experience.

 

I couldn't find a probate for the man who died in 1965 back when I first looked and I still can't. If you think it's the right man, you might want to consider ordering the death certificate. That should give you a name for the person who notified the death, (potentially a wife or child) and place of residence. There is a lower cost pdf version available specifically aimed at the family history market.

 

It might also be worth checking out the 1939 National Register, (available via subscription on Ancestry and FindMyPast) to see if you can track him down - he might even have been a hotelier by then.  What's available is a scan of the first page which gives basic details like date of birth, marriage status and occupation. That bit was obtained under a Freedom of Information request as it formed the original central register of the NHS. However what is usually visible on the scans is the first column of the facing page. This details any civil defence role and sometimes even armed forces service. Given his Army background you may well find that he served - Air Raid Police \ Local Defence Volunteer \ National Fire Service \ Special Constable and the like. That potentially opens up another source of information about your ancestor in the relevant county archive.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Wales played the NZ Army at St. Helen's Swansea on 21/04/1919, and caps were awarded by Wales.

Fred Pates was not in this side.

A possibility also is that playing in the Welsh Trial match (Probables v Possibles) might have earned a cap.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

He appears in a few Ancestry Trees:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/112227882/person/120097149500/facts?ssrc=

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/17323009/person/29344361963/facts?ssrc=

and

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/152911011/person/332068745674/facts?ssrc=

 

Looks at first glance to be the same information.

Edited 10 February , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm intrigued by the apparent interchangeable surname of 'Pate' and 'Pates'.

Some of the trees use different  surnames for the siblings.

I wonder if the OP  Jojo  could enlighten us on this?

 

The death of Frederick and Millicent is also elusive. Maybe he is the one in Essex in 1965?

But there's no death for a Millicent, but there are three Minnie Pates around, one in Essex:

 

Surname	First name(s)	Age	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Sep 1962   (>99%)
PATES	Minnie	69	Colchester	4a	478

 

Surname	First name(s)	DoB	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Dec 1972   (>99%)
PATES	MINNIE	21MY1885	NOTTINGHAM	3C	1215
Deaths Dec 1981   (>99%)
PATES	MINNIE	15DE1900	NEWPORT	28	590

Edited 11 February , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PRC]

Hi,

 

I assume Millicent comes from one of the Ancestry family trees. The Minnie whose death at the age of 69 was recorded in the Colchester District is almost certainly the same Minnie who turns up on the 1962 Probate Calendar as having died on the 4th September 1962. She was the wife of an Ernest George Pates, a retired Civil Servant. The couple lived in Clacton-on-Sea and she died in the Hospital there. Clacton-on Sea, (previously Great Clacton) was covered by the Colchester Civil Registration District from 1939 up until 2010.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/colchester.html

 

Now this is speculation, but the only marriage I can see in England and Wales for a Frederick A. Pates in the right time frame occured in the St George Hanover Square District of London in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1928. Given the Guards connection that seems a bit of a co-incidence. His wife was a Catherine M Holmes.

 

There are no children registrered after this date in England and Wales with the surname Pates, mothers' maiden name Holmes, but given that Frederick would have been 33/34 by this point, Catherine could potentially have been a widow or divorced.

 

Further co-incidence - the death of a Catherine M. Pates, aged 82, was registered in the Southend-on-Sea District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1968. That would place her birth as circa 1886 to Fredericks circa 1894. No Probate entry unfortunately.

 

Must be a strong possibility his Service Record will confirm the marriage and whether Catherine was a spinster or not. In the meantime a look up of the 1939 National Register might firm this up as a contender or a non-starter :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Aneurin]

 F A Pates played at forward in the Welsh trial at Pontypool on 14 December 1922. He represented the East Wales XV against the Welsh Probable XV. "Cpl F A Pates  ... caught the eye". (Western Mail 15.12.22).

The WRU issued trial caps at that time, so this may be the one Jojo's mother remembers. See Cardiff Rugby Museum online for an example from 1928-9:  https://cardiffrugbymuseum.org/object/cap-wales-192829-trial

Besides playing for the Welsh Guards, the Army and London Welsh, he seems to have had one First XV game for Cardiff in 1921-2 ("Corpl. - Pates").

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

22 minutes ago, Aneurin said:

He represented the East Wales XV against the Welsh Probable XV.

The WRU issued trial caps at that time

Thanks Aneurin, I had suspected that as a possibility in Post #13.