MikeyH Posted 22 August , 2015 Share Posted 22 August , 2015 Have acquired a P1903 bayonet, originally marked to the 3rd Battalion Durham Light Infantry no. 338, this has been over marked. The bayonet has then been re-issued to:- Y 1.N.DVN 193 Am I correct in thinking this is the First Battalion North Devons? Another possibility is the First Naval Division, but this would probably have been marked R.N.DVN for Royal Naval Divsion? The pommel top has had around 30mm of the surface removed, this is stepped, to a maximum depth of around 2mm. Can anyone suggest why this modification has been carried out? The bayonet is in good order, with all the original blueing present, except where the metal has been ground off. It was made at Enfield and is date stamped March 1905. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 22 August , 2015 Share Posted 22 August , 2015 Y 1.N.DVN 193 Mike, Your bayonet's pommel is marked to the 1st Battalion, Royal North Devon Yeomanry, with the Bayonet's serial number 193. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2015 Lancs, Many thanks, I was correct but should have realised that the Y stood for Yeomanry. Am still intrigued by the modification to the pommel, which was carried out if not in period, then soon after. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 23 August , 2015 Share Posted 23 August , 2015 The pommel top has had around 30mm of the surface removed, this is stepped, to a maximum depth of around 2mm. Can anyone suggest why this modification has been carried out? The bayonet is in good order, with all the original blueing present, except where the metal has been ground off. It was made at Enfield and is date stamped March 1905. Mike, Is your bayonet's blade only stamped March 1905, if so, then it is not a converted Pattern 1888, as the blades on those conversions also carried the original P1888 date, not that converted or not converted, has anything to do with your pommel's alteration. I was just interested to know if it had an original Pattern 1888 date on the blade or not ? I have checked all my bayonet reference works, and can find on mention of such an alteration to the Pattern 1903's pommel, I can only assume that it was carried out to make your bayonet fit a different rifle, and perhaps that was done when your bayonet was ' captured ', or by a foreign or colonial army who purchased stocks of old Pattern 1903s and modified them for use on their particular type of rifle ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2015 Lancs, No the blade only carries the March 1905 date, plus 1903 for the type, so is not a P1888 conversion and still fits my 1916 S.M.L.E. perfectly. As you say the mod. was done to adapt it to another type of rifle, there must be more out there with the same alteration. Many thanks for checking. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 August , 2015 Share Posted 23 August , 2015 I believe I have seen this modification previously although I am unsure where. I have been through my notes but I am still none the wiser, I will keep looking. As you say, the most obvious reason would to allow it to fit a different rifle type however, an alternative might be to allow it to fit when another ancillary device (wire cutter? grenade launcher cup? etc) was also fitted. I know this is not needed with the standard versions of these sorts of fittings but it seems to be an additional possibility. Chris HERE is a similarly modified P1907 although neither the firearm for which it was modified not who was responsible for the modification is identified Does yours also ha the muzzle ring flattened as here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 23 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2015 Chris, Yes, that is virtually the same modification, and no the muzzle ring has not been altered. Many thanks. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 August , 2015 Share Posted 26 August , 2015 Snap! Although I think mine may pre-date your example given it is on a P88 bayonet and still retains the "IY" (Imperial Yeomanry) marking. Yours is also in much better condition obviously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 August , 2015 Share Posted 30 August , 2015 An interesting one and nice marking! ... I can only assume that it was carried out to make your bayonet fit a different rifle, and perhaps that was done when your bayonet was ' captured ', or by a foreign or colonial army who purchased stocks of old Pattern 1903s and modified them for use on their particular type of rifle ? .. As you say the mod. was done to adapt it to another type of rifle, there must be more out there with the same alteration. ... 4G's point that it may have been done to allow another device to be fitted is a good one, but from my limited experience of German bayonets, this type of step modification is always and only found with captured or requisitioned bayonets, to allow them to fit another rifle. I am not saying that this is the case here, but I am reminded of any number of French, etc., bayonets modified by the Germans in this way. It will need some research, but I will see what I can find. For starters, though, anyone know much about what other rifles a P.1903 mortise slot and MRD might fit? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 31 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2015 Julian, Would be very interesting to see what you can turn up. Just for the record, P1903 mortise slot is:- 28.30mm. long, width 6.36 mm and depth 10mm. Muzzle ring inside diameter 16.60mm., all measurements approximate. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 August , 2015 Share Posted 31 August , 2015 I've had a good look through what literature I have and haven't found anything yet... The Germans captured so many British rifles that, in fact, it's hard to believe that they would need to alter a P.1903 bayonet to fit another rifle... But, there again, never say never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 August , 2015 Share Posted 31 August , 2015 Just thinking out loud (at work away from anything to test this until I get home) How about to fit a P14? Isn't the primary difference between the Pattern 13 bayonet and the Pattern 1907 bayonet (which shares it's hilt with the P1903) the height of the muzzle ring, the P13/M1917 being taller than the 03/07. Machining the butt like this would have the same effect as raising the muzzle ring wouldn't it. Best candidate for this? India - who favoured the P1903 but were also sent a large shipment of P1914 rifles. As I said just thinking out loud with nothing to reference until I get home. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 August , 2015 Share Posted 31 August , 2015 Just thinking out loud (at work away from anything to test this until I get home) ... Sounds good - I have no rifles and it does need a rifle person like you to get this sorted out! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 31 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2015 Chris, There is quite a noticeable difference between the bayonet mountings on the S.M.L.E and the P14. The dimension between the pommel top surface and the muzzle ring centre differs by around 14mm., also the muzzle ring i.d. on the P14 is smaller by around 1.5 mm. So not for the P14, but a good theory! Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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