trajan Posted 8 August , 2015 Share Posted 8 August , 2015 The poor old Ross bayonet doesn't get much attention on GWF, although there was once a thriving thread on these, now locked. at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141118 Needless to say that apart from clearly not being common in the UK (well, at least not among GWF members - unless they are ashamed for some reason to show them!), they are pretty rare over here as well. So it is a pleasure to introduce you to what is only the third example I have seen here, a P.1908 (or 'Mark I') example manufactured in June 1910 - unfortunately with modified blade and no scabbard... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 August , 2015 Share Posted 8 August , 2015 You will be needing a scabbard like this then (shown front and centre) ... Another one of the 'job lots' that I picked up recently. They are stamped with the C^ RRC MK.I and date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2015 You seem to be getting quite a few bundles of odds and ends down there - thinking of setting up a shop? Thanks for showing! Yes, I guess a scabbard will not be that easy to find anywhere, never mind Turkey. The only one I have ever seen over here was with a P.1911, and the owner was asking way to much for the pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeRover Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 A bit late to this discussion, but thought I'd chime in from the land of the Ross Rifle with a couple of additional photos that may (or may not) add a little bit more info to the discussion of this, as you flagged Trajan, little-discussed piece of kit. Here are photos of my two Ross bayonets - one for each of my Mk II 5* and Mk III Ross rifles. Photos show comparative length of the scabbards. The first pattern bayonet (this one dated 1909) being that little bit shorter than the second pattern (a 1915 example). Markings are hopefully visible and you can see the blade profiles. the second pattern having had the modification to increase penetration as discussed in other threads. As for markings, the "08" pattern is dated 10-10 with the C-broad arrow and proof. Only regimentals are in the wood of the grip on one side. What appears to be an "A 635". The "11" pattern is also C-broad arrow marked, proofed and dated 12/15. Based on my limited study, the hyphen was replaced with the / slash when the model changed. Two regimental markings visible. A large "497" in the wood grip on one side and "T" over "3009" on the head of the pommel. And, if you'll indulge, here's the first pattern example alongside the rifle for which it was designed. The Mk II Ross is a much more svelte rifle than the Mk III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Thanks for showing! Those are both very nice examples! And you photographs clearly show the difference between the two types. Also an interesting observation on the hyphen versus slash marking - I had not noticed that before or seen it commented on. Oh, and the rifle - well, of course the things had to go on somethings, and nice to see an example of what I gather was not best welcomed in the mud of the West Front... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 I am a little confused with the different Ross rifles ( nice photos by the way). Which model Ross actually went to F&F with the CEF ? thanks khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 I am a little confused with the different Ross rifles ( nice photos by the way). Which model Ross actually went to F&F with the CEF ? thanks khaki The MkIII (M1910) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 Thanks for the Ross information, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 (edited) Also a bit late to the discussion but you all have some beautifully marked bayonets there, thanks for sharing. Top: Mk.II Ross Bayonet Below: The Post 1915 modification with the modified blade point. Sadly not mine (yet....) buy my fathers and rather badly scanned in my apologies! Nice detail on the MK.II Pommel. Toby Edited 16 August , 2015 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeRover Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 (edited) 4thGordons is correct about it being the Mk III which made it's way overseas with the 1st Canadian Division. In addition to the well-documented jamming created by the combination of tight chambers and lesser-quality British ammo, and the lack of penetration of the original profile "butter knife" bayonet was the length of the Mk III Ross. Posted in another thread here, but here's a poor photo of the Mk II Ross, Mk III Ross and the SMLE, showing the comparative lengths of the rifles. The Mk III Ross, certainly wouldn't have been as handy as the SMLE that replaced it. Edited 16 August , 2015 by MenoftheNorth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 AN INTERESTING MK.III ROSS RIFLE & BAYONET. In 1914 the British were building two battleships for the Chileans. At the outbreak of war both were expropriated for the Royal Navy. One almost complete, the Almirante Litorre, was renamed HMS Canada and took part in the Battle of Jutland. Following the rearming of the Canadians with S.M.L.E.s in 1916 many of the withdrawn Ross Rifles were later issued to the Royal Navy, with HMS Canada receiving about 200 for the use of her Royal Marines. Following the war HMS Canada was at last delivered to the Chilean Navy complete with her consignment of Ross Rifles and reverted to her original name. Upon delivery to her new owners the Rosses and their bayonets in her armoury were stamped "D.A", which is believed to stand for "Directorado de Armada" and a rack number. The Almirante Litorre served in the Chilean Navy until being scrapped during the early 1960s. Her Rosses were eventually purchased by a Canadian Company from which I bought this rifle and bayonet in 1973. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 What a great war history for rifle and bayonet, amazing, congratulations I am envious. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 4thGordons is correct about it being the Mk III which made it's way overseas with the 1st Canadian Division. In addition to the well-documented jamming created by the combination of tight chambers and lesser-quality British ammo I did some reading up on the jamming issues and whilst manufacturing tolerances (chamber/ammunition) were contributor factors I believe the report written by Major Blair (1916) investigating the issue identified the stop-bolt as the main problem. It is reported by Philips and Knap (Sir Charles Ross and His Rifle 1969) that: "Only the thin, outer edge of the rearmost bolt thread came into contact with the unyielding steel bolt stop when the handle was yanked back for extraction and reloading. The body of the bolt stop became a swaging block which produced burring, bending or cracking or the threaded edge of the lug, until it finally became so deformed that the bolt head jammed in its receiver wells when the handle was rammed home. In violent ejection during rapid fire, or when cartridges stuck during extraction, the impact between the lug and stop increased. Deformation was accellerated and jamming hastened. The remedy recommended, and immediately applied, was to increase the diameter of the bolt stop at the area of impact with the lug from .01007 square inches to .021607 square inches. This cut the stress per square inch at each blow and stopped jamming caused by lug deformation. The remedy came too late to do any good. Dissatisfaction with the Ross had reached the point of no return" (pp21/2) I have some Ross bayonets somewhere -- I shall dig them out and photograph them. Whilst the MkIII went to Europe, quite a number of MkII(1905) Ross rifles were purchased by the US and used for training. Rifles and Bayonets with US stamping on are reasonably common - although pretty pricey. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2015 AN INTERESTING MK.III ROSS RIFLE & BAYONET. ... The Almirante Litorre served in the Chilean Navy until being scrapped during the early 1960s. Her Rosses were eventually purchased by a Canadian Company from which I bought this rifle and bayonet in 1973. I had heard the story and nice to see some basis behind it! Nice rifle and bayonet there! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 17 August , 2015 Share Posted 17 August , 2015 wow! very nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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