German bayonet questions

[Khaki]

here's a few, for our panel of experts, not just to ask questions and test knowledge, it's just that it puzzles me.

Although I have never owned a 'dress' or 'walking out German bayonet' my understanding of them is that they were not functional bayonets in that their

locking mechanisms did not work,

(1) Were the blades real 'live' blades

(2) Were they or could they be converted to functional bayonets

(3) Did they continue to be made after 1914 and considering shortages, why?

thanks

khaki

[trajan]

... Although I have never owned a 'dress' or 'walking out German bayonet' my understanding of them is that they were not functional bayonets in that their

locking mechanisms did not work,

(1) Were the blades real 'live' blades

(2) Were they or could they be converted to functional bayonets

(3) Did they continue to be made after 1914 and considering shortages, why?

IIRC (I am away from home at the moment), some of these do turn up with functioning push buttons, in which case the difference s the lack of 'fraktur' marks and a blade spine mark, plus they have a fancy maker's mark. But another major difference is that the mortise slot is almost always fractionally narrower than on a real bayonet. The difference is really slight but enough so that some / most of these will not fit onto the bayonet lug of a Gew.98. All that said and accepted, there are examples of private purchase kS.98's (no fraktur, etc) that will fit a Gew.98 - these became popular after the 1915 order that officers had to wear bayonets instead of swords, and specifically the S.98/05 - but as photographs show, many officers went for a kS.98 or another knife-bayonet.

As to (1), yes, real enough blades! (2), only usable in that way if the mortise slot is wide enough; (3), good question - but the real shortage was in the making of 98/05's, and by 1917, there were more than enough of these about.

TTFN,

Julian

[Khaki]

Thanks Julian,

When time permits, perhaps you could show us some examples?

khaki

[trajan]

Thanks Julian,

When time permits, perhaps you could show us some examples?

khaki

Would you believe I avoid them like the plague! Apart from the fact that they are, in any case, rare over here, that's partly because they are for dress use; and and partly because of price issues - rather save my hard-earned kurush for the real things! That said, I do have the one private purchase kS 98, but that is not in very good condition... But I do have some references to these and will check them over for you when back in Ankara.

[calibre792x57.y]

I always believed that the vast majority of German 'dress' sidearms belong to the Twenties and Thirties rather than the Great War - SW

[trajan]

I always believed that the vast majority of German 'dress' sidearms belong to the Twenties and Thirties rather than the Great War - SW

Well, yes and no - depends on how we define 'dress' bayonets! I have not really looked deeply into such matters, to be honest, apart from which as the damn things don't have a date-stamp, then it is not that easy to date them (although a search of the catalogues of the various makers might give a clue)... That said, evidently some privately-purchased bayonets ('Eigentumswaffen - and yes, Khaki, that is the correct term!) were exactly that - i.e., they could be used as a fixable weapon, the only difference from issue-bayonets being that they do not have any regulation proof-marks, etc.. although they could in a sense be classed as 'dress' bayonets. But others were not, but were strictly worn with the 'dress' uniform when off-duty, these usually lacking any method of fixing them to a rifle, or (shock, horror!) being nickel-plated, although I have come across one example that is fixable and not nickel-plated, but lacks a cleaning holes, so making it 'dress' rather than a combination 'dress and service' weapon.

True, it does seems that 'dress' bayonets (of all types) reach their greatest height of popularity in the twixt-wars period. However, there are examples of non-fixable kS.98 'bayonets' that have a gilt or other metal monogram of Wilhem II on the grips and there are GW period photographs of kS.98 bayonets with the same monogram being worn by officers. Whether the latter are fixable or not cannot be determined, of course, but I get the sense, no more, that they are identical to these known non-fixable ones.

I'll try to see if I can find out anything more, but for the time being, perhaps best to restrict the term 'dress' bayonets to those that are non-fixable?

Trajan

[trajan]

Sawdoc has one of these monogrammed examples - see: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207480

Oh, and the correct name for one of these commercial bayonets for 'dress' use seems to be Extraseitengewehr....

Which leads me to another observation that I have never followed up. German texts seem to restrict the use of the term Bajonett to the socket examples, having taken the name (I assume) from the French, although it is normally made into a compound to give us the Dillenbayonett. Then there is the Faschinenmesser, which as far as I can see is a bladed bayonet designed exclusively for pioneer and artillery use (for cutting and making fascines!). Then there is the Seitengewehr which is a sidearm... When you get into in deeper, especially the 19th century, it gets even more interesting, with distinctions between Infanterie-Seitengewehr, Artillerie-Seitengewehr, etc. - but that's enough for now! The Seitengewehr as we know it was the name given to all bayonets as from about the turn of the century - I'll try and find the reference for this...

Trajan

[trajan]

I had a quick search this morning through various German forums for more information regarding the introduction of these Extraseitengewehr... Lots of 'twixt wars and WW2 examples, but also one (a kS.98) that may possibly be pre-1903 on stylistic grounds, with a rare maker's mark of 'early 20th century date' - see: http://www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/topic.php?id=1906&highlight=extraseitengewehr&

[motojosh]

Here's two I formerly owned. The 71/84 by Weyersberg has a functioning press stud and mounted fine on my 71/84 while the sg71 has no mounting slot and a false press stud. Interestingly enough I've even seen a few private purchase examples with unit markings.

Unit marked s98 by Weyersberg (Not mine)

[trajan]

That S.71 looks pretty conclusive for 'dress' bayonets having been in use pre-WW1! Can't imagine anyone wanting to have a thing like that hanging of their belt when newer and shorter versions were available, i.e., from the early 20th century. Incidentally, I was looking through Lubbe and Carter yesterday, and was amazed at the number of private purchase and 'dress' 98/05's that they show, so the S.98 is not exactly a surprise (although the marking is, as it is clearly not an officer's blade!) - is that one fixable?

Julian

[Gew88/05]

Imperial Era walking out bayonets are actually quite common, that is to say private purchase versions of the Sg71, Sg71/84, Sg98 and Sg98/05 are often seen. The unit marked walking out bayonets are much less common but are seen occasionally, at least here in the U.S. They were unit owned and used by those who either could not afford a walking out bayonet or had misplaced their own.

Keep in mind that, even if though a walking out bayonet might be capable of fixing on a rifle, they were not intended to be used in any way other than display on the soldier's person. The materials were very likely substandard - blades were not properly tempered and would bend (too soft) or break (too hard) easily.

[trajan]

Imperial Era walking out bayonets are actually quite common, that is to say private purchase versions of the Sg71, Sg71/84, Sg98 and Sg98/05 are often seen. ... Keep in mind that, even if though a walking out bayonet might be capable of fixing on a rifle, they were not intended to be used in any way other than display on the soldier's person. The materials were very likely substandard - blade s were not properly tempered and would bend (too soft) or break (too hard) easily.

I will take your word on private purchase versions of the S.71 being 'often seen', but can we be agreed on terminology here? That is to say, how would you define a 'walking out bayonet' - not trying to be difficult, but agreed precision in terminology helps! I haven't as yet found an agreed German definition of what an 'Extraseitengewehr' is, as some of the 'Eigentumsseitengewehr' or 'privately purchased sidearms' seem to be fixable and functional blades others are clearly not. Clearly, a Ph.D thesis here for somebody!

[Gew88/05]

Extraseitengewehr is the most commonly used German term I beleive, so that will do for me, how about you?

Whether Eigentumsseitengewehr or Extraseitengewehr, I have a feeling both terms apply to the purely decorative bayonet worn when the soldier is off duty and not intended for use as a weapon, though under the extreme circumstances, even a poorly made decorative bayonet could be used as such if the circumstances required it. Personally I have never collected these since they are not considered real weapons to be used by the soldier in combat and they do not interest me at all.

Still, in the US where few actually speak German (obviously I don't) the term Dress Bayonet is the most common term used and Walking Out Bayonet is also used but not as often heard. At any rate, do a search on eBay for German bayonet and you will likely find a half dozen Imperial Eigentumsseitengewehr or Extraseitengewehr, whichever you wish to call them, listed. But they will simply be called bayonet by the seller.

[trajan]

Extraseitengewehr is the most commonly used German term I beleive, so that will do for me, how about you?

Whether Eigentumsseitengewehr or Extraseitengewehr, I have a feeling both terms apply to the purely decorative bayonet worn when the soldier is off duty and not intended for use as a weapon, though under the extreme circumstances, even a poorly made decorative bayonet could be used as such if the circumstances required it. Personally I have never collected these since they are not considered real weapons to be used by the soldier in combat and they do not interest me at all.

Still, in the US where few actually speak German (obviously I don't) the term Dress Bayonet is the most common term used and Walking Out Bayonet is also used but not as often heard. At any rate, do a search on eBay for German bayonet and you will likely find a half dozen Imperial Eigentumsseitengewehr or Extraseitengewehr, whichever you wish to call them, listed. But they will simply be called bayonet by the seller.

It does seem that Extraseitengewehr is the most common term, and so yes, I'm happy with that. And I agree that the terms Extraseitengewehr and Eigentumsseitengewehr are essentially interchangeable, as the first is by definition ('Extra-') a non-regulation and so privately-purchased item... Somewhere, I would think, there would be a Prussian / Bavarian regulation regarding the wearing of these non-regulation issue 'dress' weapons - I know there was for the 3rd. Reich period, but I cannot recall now where I saw that or what it said. I had hoped that Wheeler in his "Seitengewehr" might add something of use, but all he really says (pp. 32-33) is that Extraseitengewehre were worn off-duty to indicate the wearer's status as a 'Waffentraeger' - which I thought would have been obvious from the uniform! He also says: "Whether or not the bayonet attaches to a rifle , they should all be considered Deutsche Seitengewehre.", which is fair enough, as the last term by itself translates (as you will know) simply as 'sidearm'...

That aside, like you, I ignore those bayonets that are non-fixable, also those that are fixable but overly-decorated (plated, fancy pommels and / or crossguards, fancy grips, etc.), and so are clearly more for show - 'dress' - than for use...not that many of either type turn up over here! However I have picked up a couple of otherwise regulation-looking bayonets that lack Abnahmenstempeln and which I assume are privately-purchased jobs, and so Eigentumsseitengewehre.

Oh, one other thing - I note that while some of the literature has Extraseitengewehre, other sources have Extra-Seitengewehre... I am by no means an expert on the German language, and I'll try and find out which is correct!

Best,

Trajan

[Gew88/05]

Thanks Trajan, let us know what you come up with.