Mountain gun identification - help needed

[MBrockway]

Pals,
I've been puzzled for a while by the photo below from this thread on the British Badge Forum: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14244 (membership required)


[source & copyright: Signalman on British Badge Forum]

I think it shows a KRRC Lieutenant with a pair up and 3 KRRC OR's in mounted order with bandoliers around a 200lbs Mark IV RML 7 pounder Mountain Gun.

Can a Pal with expertise on mountain guns confirm the gun? I did wonder if it might be an enemy Krupps 6cm mountain gun, which was certainly used by the Turks and some of the Balkan enemy states.


The photo must be 1918 or later as the officer seems to have a Great War pair up, but why are they surrounding an out-of-date Victorian mountain gun?

Were RML 7 pounders in service in any European theatre in WW1?

As well as the Western Front, the KRRC fought in North Russia, Salonika and Italy, but not Gallipoli or further into the Middle East/Asia.

Any suggestions as to where this picture could be taken?

THis would help me narrow down the possible battalions.

I'm by no means 100% certain these are even men of the 60th. Some of the rifles London Regiment battalions are alternatives, and were it not for the medals, I even considered the KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion with a Boer War gun being used for demonstrations. Surprising not to see any overseas or good conduct chevrons or wound stripes in 1918.

Help!

Mark

[shippingsteel]

I think it shows a KRRC Lieutenant with a pair up and 3 KRRC OR's in mounted order with bandoliers around a 200lbs Mark IV RML 7 pounder Mountain Gun.

The photo must be 1918 or later as the officer seems to have a Great War pair up, but why are they surrounding an out-of-date Victorian mountain gun?

Were RML 7 pounders in service in any European theatre in WW1?

I am no expert by any means, however I agree with your identification of the gun as an RML 7-pdr Mountain Gun. (So a British gun of the Zulu & Boer War era)

It certainly looks like a British service carriage in the photo, and the gun itself does appear to be of the 7-pdr size. See some links here RML 2.5 inch & RML 7-pdr

Cheers, S>S

[MBrockway]

I am no expert by any means, however I agree with your identification of the gun as an RML 7-pdr Mountain Gun. (So a British gun of the Zulu & Boer War era)

It certainly looks like a British service carriage in the photo, and the gun itself does appear to be of the 7-pdr size. See some links here RML 2.5 inch & RML 7-pdr

Cheers, S>S

Yep I'd already clocked the Wikipedia mountain gun articles.

Personally I found them disappointing, but they did lead me to this much more informative piece: Guns in South Africa 1899-1902 by Major Darrell D Hall (South African Military History Society Journal, Vol 2 No 1 - June 1971)

[MBrockway]

Some excellent engineering drawings of the RML 7 pounder & an interesting replica project here: http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7919

[MaureenE]

Apologies if I have the wrong gun, but this article says:

The Screw Gun or 2.5 inch RML (Rifled Muzzle Loading) Mountain Gun is one of the most famous guns ever in service in the Royal Artillery and in Indian Mountain batteries. Introduced in 1879, it saw service on the 'North-West Frontier', North-East India, Burma, Afghanistan, Tibet, the Middle East, Africa, and during the Great War – in Mesopotamia, Gallipoli, East Africa, Persia and Palestine.

http://www.limbergunners.ca/html/body_history_of_the_screw_gun.html

This link is about Indian Artillery in World War 1 . Author Major General Rajendra Prakash

http://indiaww1.in/Indian-Artillery-in-World-War-1-by-Maj-Gen-Rajendra-Prakash-VSM-(Retd).pdf

Cheers

Maureen

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Maureen,

Pardon me correcting you, this is the 7pr rifle muzzle loader mountain gun not the 2.5inch screw gun (mountain gun). The latter was a latter and better weapon.

The 7pr RML was used by both the Army and Navy and was very obsolete by the 2nd Boer War 1899-1902. It had a very long service in training roles and the WW1 photo is presumably in a training function only.

The attached photos are from the gun at Fort Nelson in 2013, desperately in need of a little bit of machine oil to arrest the corrosion. It has the naval trolley that goes with it to carry ammunition and to act as a limber during manual draught by a Naval landing Party.

Cheers

Ross

Another photo of the gun, which would not attaché to the previous post

[MBrockway]

Apologies if I have the wrong gun, but this article says:

The Screw Gun or 2.5 inch RML (Rifled Muzzle Loading) Mountain Gun is one of the most famous guns ever in service in the Royal Artillery and in Indian Mountain batteries. Introduced in 1879, it saw service on the 'North-West Frontier', North-East India, Burma, Afghanistan, Tibet, the Middle East, Africa, and during the Great War – in Mesopotamia, Gallipoli, East Africa, Persia and Palestine.

http://www.limbergunners.ca/html/body_history_of_the_screw_gun.html

This link is about Indian Artillery in World War 1 . Author Major General Rajendra Prakash

http://indiaww1.in/Indian-Artillery-in-World-War-1-by-Maj-Gen-Rajendra-Prakash-VSM-(Retd).pdf

Cheers

Maureen

Thanks Maureen but definitely the wrong gun!

The Indian article very interesting but cannot see any mention of the RML 7 pounder.

Also, as per my original post, I stress the KRRC did not serve in the Great War anywhere except the Western Front, Salonika and Italy (2 bns for 5 months only) and in North Russia in 1919. The latter three theatres all reasonable candidates for mountain guns, though not of this vintage. The KRR's were no further into the Middle East/Asia than Macedonia.

I'm trying to pair up the gun and the KRRC. The KRRC did not serve in Mesopotamia, Gallipoli, East Africa, Persia nor Palestine

Ross,

I agree with you - this is an RML 7 pounder being used as a demonstration gun in a training role.

Hence one scenario I'm considering is KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion with a veteran lieutenant sporting a Great War pair. There is a slight hint of 'C' collar badge on his lapels. Zooming in, it doesn't look like any badge is actually there, more like a ghost mark where a badge has stopped the cloth fading. However this could be staining in the cloth or a blemish on the photo ... or my weak eyes!

The lack of good conduct/overseas chevrons and wound stripes could also suggest a KRRC Young Soldier/Graduated battalion in training, again with a veteran lieutenant.

Great photo of the Fort Nelson gun too. I couldn't find images on-line for any of the examples in UK museums. Much appreciated. Squinting hard it is the 200lbs Mk IV.

Cheers both,

Mark

[Chasemuseum]

There is also an example of the 7pr RML at Firepower in London (if it is still open). Not living in the UK I have only limited access to your museums. I do not believe that there are any examples in Australia/NZ. Again photos from 2013.

Cheers

RT