JTF Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Hello does anyone know if the various companys kept record of the lee speed rifles they made? i have a lee metford MkII* speed LSA and was wondering if i could frind more info about it.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 What sort of additional information were you interested in? Compared to wartime military contract figures production numbers were low and I know there has been an ongoing effort by at least one collector to compile serial number data. Does your rifle have any military markings? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 Remember "Lee-Speed" should be thought of as a modern term for a "commercial" Lee-Metford/Lee-Enfield rifle. They are so-called because of the "Lee Speed Patents" marking that they carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF Posted 24 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2015 i was just wondering if you could find out when and where it was sold and maybe to whom? no military markings on it but it does have the vollysights in military configuration. i can maybe put up a pic later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 24 July , 2015 Share Posted 24 July , 2015 i was just wondering if you could find out when and where it was sold and maybe to whom? no military markings on it but it does have the vollysights in military configuration. i can maybe put up a pic later. JTF, Welcome to the Forum. Some of the British service rifle manufacturing companies, such as B.S.A., in addition to manufacturing rifles for the British Army, also retailed those rifles to the public, with one of the few differences being those retailed rifles carried no military markings. In the attached B.S.A. retail sales brochures from 1919 and the 1930s, you can see ' commercial ' examples of service style rifles on sale to the public. Your rifle is probably a ' retailed commercial ' version, and as such, I doubt that the retailer's sales records of an individual rifle sold to a retail buyer still exist today. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF Posted 24 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 24 July , 2015 thank you for the info. i was thinking they were made to order but i see its more of a commercial gun just that special people owned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 25 July , 2015 Share Posted 25 July , 2015 thank you for the info. i was thinking they were made to order but i see its more of a commercial gun just that special people owned them. There's no doubt that some were made to order. Thee days people think of the Sporting versions as Lee-Speeds rather than the full-stocked military rifles above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanD Posted 26 July , 2015 Share Posted 26 July , 2015 Commercial Lee Enfield rifles including those marked with Speed Patent were only made by two companies in the UK. BSA and LSA or London Small Arms. Any rifle marked Holland & Holland, Purdey, Westley Richards or W.W. Greener were all retailed by these gun making firms, not manufactured by them. The later company did produce parts for the Lee Enfield under military contract in the Great War, but not complete rifles. Records for BSA are held by Warwick University, but do not appear to hold any sales ledgers of commercial rifle sales. The records for London Small Arms Co are with an institution in Scotland. I don’t know anyone who has looked at these records but again it is unlikely they will have any detailed records. I hope to look at these records myself in a couple of months on my next trip to Blighty. There is a Facebook page run by an enthusiast for London small Arms Co - https://www.facebook.com/LondonSmallArmsCoLtdhistory An Admiralty history of technical problems published in 1920, has a list of miscellaneous small arms purchased in America and from the British 'trade', which includes the following entry. 303-inch L.E. Sporting Rifles. 970 bought from the trade in March 1915, issued to miscellaneous craft. Small quantities of Lee Enfield’s which were in stock were purchased by the War Office early in the War one of which was a purchase of 17 rifles from LSA Co. This was reported in the official History of the Ministry of Munitions published after the War, the author missed a second small purchase from the LAC at around the same time, which show up in contract records which was for around 13 or 15 rifles (file not to hand). This goes to show that the researcher cannot take on face value even official history’s without checking the source material. A book on commercial Lee Enfield’s including "Lee Speeds" is being prepared, hopefully we will see it next year. There is a sub-forum on Lee Speed rifles on the Nitro Express Forum which is worth checking out. Does your rifle have any maker or retailer markings? Regards AlanD Sydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 26 July , 2015 Share Posted 26 July , 2015 The 8mm option is your pic just caught my eye! Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of that before. Was it chambered for the German Mauser round? If so, presumably that had some of the same issues found in the later rechamberings of No.4s to 7,62x51 NATO, such as Parker Hale's T4? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 July , 2015 Share Posted 26 July , 2015 The records for London Small Arms Co are with an institution in Scotland. I don’t know anyone who has looked at these records but again it is unlikely they will have any detailed records. I hope to look at these records myself in a couple of months on my next trip to Blighty. There is a Facebook page run by an enthusiast for London small Arms Co - https://www.facebook.com/LondonSmallArmsCoLtdhistory Alan, With reference to L.S.A., I am very fortunate to have in my Firearms Collection an exceedingly rare London Small Arms Co. Ltd., Magazine Lee-Enfield Mk.1* Manufacturer's Presentation Rifle. All genuine Presentation Rifles are extremely rare, particularly those dated WW1 or earlier, and Manufacturer's Presentation Rifles are considered by many collectors to be the most desirable. These rifles, presented by the actual rifle maker, as opposed to those purchased by a third party and then presented, were the epitome of the Gunmaker's craft, and allowed the rifle manufacturer to demonstrate the quality of their product and their workmanship. Consequently, with the Manufacturer's Presentation Rifle you would expect to see the very highest quality components, and the very highest standards of the rifle maker's skills and workmanship on display. With this particular rifle, even more so, as it was presented by the London Small Arms Co. Ltd. as a Winner's Prize Presentation Rifle at the prestigious Bisley Rifle Championships in 1911. For the rifle manufacturer there was no better setting than Bisley to display their rifle, and have it viewed by the finest rifle shooters and rifle aficionados not just in Great Britain, but in the world. This London Small Arms Co. Ltd., ( L.S.A. Ltd ) Presentation Rifle is a Lee-Enfield Mk.1* in .303 calibre ( not having the clearing rod fitted ), and the manufacturer's have chosen to showcase this rifle using the rare and beautiful matching highest quality English Walnut with the distinctive Fiddleback striped grain on all the rifle's woodwork, expertly matching the grain over the complete length of the rifle. Fiddleback Walnut, is so called because of its use in the making of very expensive violins. This rare cut of Walnut is classed as one of the highest grades of stock timber, and is graded by the Stockmaker as ' Fancy Grade ', and is reserved for the finest quality rifles and shotguns. Set into the butt, is a solid silver presentation plaque detailing this rifle as being presented by The London Small Arms Co. Ltd., as a Winner's Prize at Bisley in 1911. This rifle has all matching serial numbers on the bolt, barrel and backsight, and judging by the rifle's pristine mirror bore, and the superb all original overall condition of the rifle, it appears to be in unfired condition. The London Small Arms Co. Ltd. based in Tower Hamlets, London, was founded in 1866, and unlike B.S.A., Birmingham and R.S.A.F., Enfield, L.S.A. steered away from high volume rifle production, and preferred to focus on maintaining a greater level of workmanship in their firearms, and today, L.S.A. rifles are highly regarded for their higher quality and workmanship. Prior to WW1, The Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield was producing 1,000 new rifles per week, and The Birmingham Small Arms Co., was producing 750 rifles per week. By comparison, The London Small Arms Co., was producing 200+ rifles per week. With their only having been in existence for a short 69 years, from 1866 to 1935, and coupled with their low production figures, L.S.A. rifles are amongst the rarest of the production rifles. This rifle's details are :- Magazine Lee-Enfield Mark 1* Calibre - .303 Rifling and Twist - 5 groove, Enfield, LH. Barrel Length - 30.2 inches. Overall Length - 49.5 inches. Weight - 9 lb. 4 oz. Magazine Capacity - 10 rounds - The Platform Spring for the MLE Mk.1* magazine was a " C " spring. ( later models having the flat zig-zag spring ). A magazine cut-off is fitted. The backsights are graduated at 200 to 500 yards in 100 yd. steps on the bed, and the folding leaf to 1800 yards. The long range dial sights are marked from 1600 to 2800 yards, and are used in conjunction with the folding rear aperture sight. A detachable bolt dustcover is fitted. The safety catch is mounted to the right side of the cocking piece. This rifles takes the Pattern 1888 bayonet. This rifles has its original leather sling, and brass muzzle cover. Unfortunately, my photographs do not do this rifle justice, it needs to be held to be fully appreciated. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 July , 2015 Share Posted 26 July , 2015 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 26 July , 2015 Share Posted 26 July , 2015 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF Posted 8 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2015 this is what my gun looks like right now. if i can find the proper parts i will retore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 August , 2015 Share Posted 8 August , 2015 Finding an original MLE forend is going to be a huge challenge. The handguard / nosecap / band maybe not so hard...in fact if you find a fore end I have a hand guard you can have. Good news is rigby nose-caps not numbered so... if you find a foreend you are good... but that is going to be tough. There are repros being made but they are not cheap. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF Posted 11 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 August , 2015 i have seen afew nose caps for sale but there not cheap ether. i wonder if someone could splic a piece of stock onto this gun if i had all the metal bits. i also found this marking on the butt stock. does anyone know what it might say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 i also found this marking on the butt stock. does anyone know what it might say? JTF, That roundal on the butt, I have seen others for that Queen Victoria era, which were marked at the top of the roundal ' V - Royal Crown - R ', at the bottom of the roundal ' ENFIELD ', and in the middle ' W ^ D '. Some, or all of those marks may be on your butt roundal. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 August , 2015 Share Posted 11 August , 2015 i have seen afew nose caps for sale but there not cheap ether. i wonder if someone could splic a piece of stock onto this gun if i had all the metal bits. i also found this marking on the butt stock. does anyone know what it might say? I am sure a skilled woodworker/stock maker could - but it will not be cheap! In addition to the above the stamp may also be a gunmaker/retailers stamp. Is it circular or oval? I cannot tell from the picture. I have a war office Miniature Pattern .22 rifle which has the retailer stamped in this fashion on the butt. The official cartouches were circular. I would not usually expect to see a royal cypher/WD acceptance mark on a commercial rifle (but it does happen). Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTF Posted 14 August , 2015 Author Share Posted 14 August , 2015 its an oval shape. someone said i can try and use a black light to see if i can make it out. i am going to try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanD Posted 16 August , 2015 Share Posted 16 August , 2015 i have seen afew nose caps for sale but there not cheap ether. i wonder if someone could splic a piece of stock onto this gun if i had all the metal bits. i also found this marking on the butt stock. does anyone know what it might say? Could be the the LSA cartouch? A second variation is also show. Regards Alan David Sydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now