Khaki Posted 16 July , 2015 Share Posted 16 July , 2015 Nothing too special about this 98/05 saw back, no unit markings (shame) made by Mauser Oberndorf W16, as I say nothing special except that it's mine. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 And it's a very nice looking specimen! Mauser seem to have 'cornered the market' as it were in 1917, and there are not that many 1916 examples around, in my experience, Both of my Mauser 98/05 m.S examples are 1917 and almost all the 98/05 I find over here are Mauser made 1917 examples, which is to be expected as that is where many of them went to! Is the scabbard also Mauser-marked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Just discovered I have six of them, two m.S. (one a relic literally picked up in Syria), three of them with original scabbards, all 1917, one with a '1920' mark, and none, of course, unit-marked. And I just realised that they seem to have slightly different spine and fraktur marks... I'll try and get photographing later. In the meantime, here is a clip from Williams vol.II for reference showing the variations in Waffenfabrik ricasso markings and scabbard markings. Williams give no clue as to whether or not they have a chronological significance... Your ricasso marking is a very worn one, but is clearly the first one of those shown by Williams, as are all of mine. My scabbard markings are of the first type that he shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Butchers blades. Nicer than 07s. Now to echo another thread German bayonets were better than ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Butchers blades. Nicer than 07s. Now to echo another thread German bayonets were better than ours Too true on both counts! Although originally designed and intended for use by pioneers and other similar units only, as a combination bayonet and machette, late 1914 saw the decision to replace the S.98 with this as the more efficient of the two for general purpose use. That aside, a look at my notes (references can be supplied if requested) reveals that Mauser only started making these 98/05's in May 1916, and had made 373,100 or so by the end of that year. Another 493,900 were produced in 1917, and by November 1918, a total of 1,105,962 had been delivered for a total price of 11,699,609.90 marks. Of these, 116,000 were certainly sent to Turkey in 1917, apparently making up 70% of the bayonets sent there from Germany that year, and of my six examples, three came from Syria, two of them in pristine collection, and I have seen at least another five on sale over here in the past five years (which does not sound a lot, but I only look out for bayonets from 1871-1918, and I rarely see more than a total of 3 bayonets of that period on sale / offer in any one month). Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Julian, Thanks for your post - I always enjoy reading them even if I don't often comment. Your photos are, if anything, clearer than in the book. I wonder if you will make any headway with solving what is, if anything, the significance of the different markings? In case it helps I have is my small collection an S98 nA mS (removed). It is dated 1916. The Waffenfabrik marking is the same as the first of those illustrated in your photos, even down to the very light striking of the last letter of the first and third lines. The scabbard, which is obviously original to the bayonet, has the third marking with the little cross at the bottom. I note in Carter Vol I page 82 he writes that the significance of the difference between the four variations of marking on the scabbard is unknown so good luck with your research! Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Thanks for your post - I always enjoy reading them even if I don't often comment. Your photos are, if anything, clearer than in the book. ... an S98 nA mS (removed). ... The scabbard, which is obviously original to the bayonet, has the third marking with the little cross at the bottom. I note in Carter Vol I page 82 he writes that the significance of the difference between the four variations of marking on the scabbard is unknown so good luck with your research! Thanks Michael! Although at first I was confused, an S.98? Then it clicked... With regard to the different scabbard markings (and Williams does not show the first listed by Carter) my suspicion is that these represent different scabbard makers. Some firms clearly specialised in scabbard-making - the best known being F.A.Goebel, who made those Ersatz (and other) ones marked "FAG" - and there was so much sub-contracting going on in and after 1915 (with, e.g., blades [possibly blanks only?] being made by one firm and 'finished' by another) that it seems to me highly possible that the making of the Waffenfabrik scabbards was likewise contracted out. Incidentally, looking back at the Carter reference, I see that he notes having seen exactly two W/15 Waffenfabrik Mauser 98/05. Unfortunately, no illustration. But my German source is quite specific in stating that the first Waffenfabrik Mauser bayonets were not officially received until May 1916, when the initial 6,090 Waffenfabrik Mauser 98/05 bayonets were delivered. Maybe the two he mentions were a sample? More likely, as we know to be the case with Bavarian bayonets of all types that were sometimes stamped with the wrong ruler, perhaps a similar type of mistake was made here, the wrong year stamp being used resulting in these two W/15 examples? As for Carter's comment that production may have ceased in early 1918, that is certainly possible, given the production figures I quoted above. Not surprising really... As is well known, there were more than enough rifles to go around by 1918 (I understand that there were were 2.2 (many brand-new) available for each soldier in the ‘Reichsheer’), and so bayonet production must have tailed off also by then... Regarding my own collection, well, yes, it would be nice to have examples of the 1916 and the 1918 production! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 Julian, Yes, sorry; I now see I omitted the /05. Getting old! I entirely agree that it is probable that the manufacture of the scabbards (and possibly the bayonets) was sub-contracted especially given the large numbers involved. An easy method of identifying the manufacturer of a given scabbard would have been necessary in case of, for instance, issues relating to quality. The small differences in the marking of the scabbards would have made that identification easy without giving away the fact that the item was not, in fact, made by Mauser. As to the 1915 manufacture, or not as the case may be, of Waffenfabrik S98/05s who can say for certain what is the correct position? I will, however, keep my eyes open for another. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 The attached shows one of my Waffenfabrik 98/05 m.S. (the other is very much a relic) above an odd 98/05 m.S. that I have... As you can see, not much left of the grips on my Waffenfabrik example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 A Sg98/05nA/mS by Mauser in it's original scabbard. The blade is virtually mint in its factory finish and has been ground sharp although the hilt and scabbard have suffered slightly. The inspection date is 1916. This bayonet was brought back from Germany by a soldier in the Army of Occupation, but not the GW but in 1946. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 A view of the same bayonet showing scabbard marking. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 That is a seriously very good looking blade - one of my Syrian bring-backs will match it, just! There again, my scabbards are nicer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 And the date for Julian! No Crown visible above the W. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 And the date for Julian! No Crown visible above the W. - SW That's a nice photograph! The lack of a crown is interesting, revealing that the stamp used didn't always have such a detail. There is that one document - which I'll try to chase up tomorrow - about stamps being officially supplied. Off-hand, I think my WAFFENFABRIK W/17 ones all have that detail - but will check tomorrow. BTW, while re-sorting my Turkish collection this evening (i.e., I was moving things from a box to a drawer), I 'discovered' that I have a 'Turked' Waffenfabrik Mauser W/17 that I had clean forgotten about... So, that's seven in all... This one does have the crown over the W. One day, one day, I will get time to do a detailed study and sort out all of these minor details such as crowns and no crowns - and most especially, the frakturs - on these Waffenfabrik ones... I am certain that I have read somewhere long ago that the making of these Waffenfabrik blades was sub-contracted: which could explain the variety in the ricasso markings - and any variations in the frakturs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 July , 2015 Share Posted 19 July , 2015 And the date for Julian! No Crown visible above the W. - SW That's a nice photograph! The lack of a crown is interesting, revealing that the stamp used didn't always have such a detail. There is that one document - which I'll try to chase up tomorrow - about stamps being officially supplied. Off-hand, I think my WAFFENFABRIK W/17 ones all have that detail - but will check tomorrow.... I am certain that I have read somewhere long ago that the making of these Waffenfabrik blades was sub-contracted: which could explain the variety in the ricasso markings - and any variations in the frakturs as well. Well, I can confirm that all of my WAFFENFABRIK 98/05's are of the "crown / W / 17" variety. That aside, something I hadn't really cottoned on to before, they all have a single pommel fraktur, and a quick look shows this not to be the case all my pre-1915 bayonets (S.98's, S.98/05's, etc., by a variety of makers), which all have a double pommel stamp. As it is, all of my WAFFENFABRIK pommel marks look to be a crowned fraktur 'W', but the blade spine frakturs all look to be 'N', which is what SW's seems to be, unless mine and his are poorly-struck 'W's - I need to check the latter point more with mine, but kids are around and I don't want to get all of these blades out right now... (my kids are ok, and know not to touch, but the neighbours' kids are not so geared up...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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