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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Norh Midlands Divisional Train


John Beech

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Afternoon All

I am looking to get confirmation of the relationship between the ASC companies which formed the North Midlands Divisional Train, which later became 46th Division.

When you look at some of the initial officer appointments at the beginning of the war in the London Gazette, they list the officer as belonging to a particular brigade company rather than noting a particular numbered company eg, 'Staffordshire Brigade Company', 'Lincolnshire Brigade Company' etc.

The original companies of the North Midlands Divisional Train were numbered No.1, No.2, No.3 and No.4. Later, the companies became 451st - 454th Companies ASC. LLT has the composition of a Divisional Train as 'Train HQ, No. 1 (HQ) Company and three others'.

This would suggest that the original No.1 Company - later 451st Company - was therefore most likely the HQ Company leaving the following;

No.2 Company - later 452nd Company
No. 3 Company - later 453rd company
No. 4 Company - later 454th Company

I have it that 454th Company was the one supporting the Notts and Derby Brigade (139th Brigade) so is it simply a case that the companies supported the brigades in sequence:

No.1 Company (451st Company) - Headquarters Company
No. 2 Company (452nd Company) - 137th (Staffordshire) Brigade

No. 3 Company (453rd Company) - 138th (Lincoln & Leicester) Brigade

No. 4 Company (454th Company) - 139th (Sherwood Forester) Brigade

If this is correct then the following examples would means that:

Second Lieutenant James Baldwin-Webb who is listed as joining 'Headquarters Company' in fact joined No.1 Company

Second Lieutenant Norman James Bowater who is listed as joining 'Staffordshire Brigade Company' actually joined No.2 Company
Second Lieutenant Archibald Newton Peach who is listed as joining 'Lincoln and Leicester Brigade Company' actually joined No.3 Company

Hope this makes sense!

Regards

John

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John

Do you know when these officers joined? Have you had a look through the relevant section of the war diary, or the war diaries complete to see if they are mentioned at this time, or later, with a specific company. Certainly for the first few months the companies kept separate diaries - after a quick look in early 1915 there is no mention of either of these names.

Kind regards

Colin

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Hi Colin

Thanks for the suggestion, these men were all appointed in 1914, I have just started going through the Gazette entries looking to build up a database of those who served with the Divisional Train, particularly as my grandfather was with 454th Company.

Baldwin-Webb joined a TMB in 1916, survived the war and became MP for The Wrekin. He stayed in the TA after the war and rose to be a Lieutenant Colonel and died in 1940 - looks like I have some reading to do!

Regards

John

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Hi Colin

Think I have answered my own question! I followed your advice and now believe that the companies were structured as follows;

No.1 Company (451st Company) - Headquarters Company
No. 2 Company (452nd Company) - 138th (Lincoln & Leicester) Brigade - Second Lieutenant Archibald Newton Peach is initially listed as Lincoln and Leicester Brigade Company and later as being in No.2 Company
No. 3 Company (453rd Company) - 137th (Staffordshire) Brigade - Second Lieutenant Norman James Bowater and Second Lieutenant Richard Warburton Hartley are both initially listed as Staffordshire Brigade Company and later as being in No.3 Company
No. 4 Company (454th Company) - 139th (Sherwood Forester) Brigade

Thanks for your suggestion - still lots of work to do, but it appears to work.

Regards

John

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John,

Can I add a word of thanks? You have just answered an outstanding question for me.

A while ago I bought a '15 Trio to a per-war recruit of the Service Corps element of the Notts and Derby Brigade. My problem was that I could not tie him down to 454th Company. I almost added it as a topic for discussion on here a while back, but then got distracted with other things.

Sincere thanks for solving that one for me!

Regards,

Mike

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Hi Mike

Glad I could help (indirectly!!) Can I ask his details?

I have only recently started my database and at present it manly consists of officers and those commissioned from the ranks as I have only searched the LG at present. My grandfather and his brother were both pre war Territorials with No.4 Company so any names I can add would be appreciated. I have the War Diary but still need to go through it, although there are many OR names mentioned.

Regards

John

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Hi Mike

Glad I could help (indirectly!!) Can I ask his details?

I have only recently started my database and at present it manly consists of officers and those commissioned from the ranks as I have only searched the LG at present. My grandfather and his brother were both pre war Territorials with No.4 Company so any names I can add would be appreciated. I have the War Diary but still need to go through it, although there are many OR names mentioned.

Regards

John

Hi John,

You can certainly have his details. I would have quoted them earlier, but did not think them pertinent. He was 1196 Pte Walter Nester. If his name was ever mentioned, I would be very interested in the details. I gather that he also served as T4/244664

Warmest regards,

Mike

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Thanks Mike

As you will see from my signature his number of 1196 is close to my own relatives. I have it that my grandfather (Thomas Beech no.1201) joined up in around April 1913 when he was 16 years 9 months old. His brother Charles (no. 1275) is believed to have joined up later in 1913. Their renumbers are also obviously part of the same batch issued in 1917, so I can look for similar numbers in my research

When I have the opportunity, I will happily look for any reference to Walter for you, and see if I can find any other info on him.

Regards

John

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Hi Mike

There is an Attestation form for Walter on Ancestry. He enlisted on 2nd April 1913 aged 23. His enlistment date ties in nicely with what I thought about my grandfather. Walter lived at 7 Bestwood Colliery Road, Bestwood Village, Nottingham and perhaps unsurprisingly was a miner

He entered theatre on 28th February 1915 which ties in with the arrival of 46th Division, survived the war and was disembodied on 24th January 1919

He was the son of Michael and Elizabeth Nester and was born in Hucknall Torkard, Nottinghamshire in 4th quarter 1889. On 1911 census he is living in Bestwood Village with his parents and four younger siblings. His father was a colliery deputy at Bestwood Colliery

Regards

John

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Hi Mike

There is an Attestation form for Walter on Ancestry. He enlisted on 2nd April 1913 aged 23, so was born 1889/1890. His enlistment date ties in nicely with what I thought about my grandfather. Walter lived at 7 Bestwood Colliery Road, Bestwood Village, Nottingham and perhaps unsurprisingly was a miner

He entered theatre on 28th February 1915 which ties in with the arrival of 46th Division, survived the war and was disembodied on 24th January 1919

Regards

John

Hi Mike

There is an Attestation form for Walter on Ancestry. He enlisted on 2nd April 1913 aged 23, so was born 1889/1890. His enlistment date ties in nicely with what I thought about my grandfather. Walter lived at 7 Bestwood Colliery Road, Bestwood Village, Nottingham and perhaps unsurprisingly was a miner

He entered theatre on 28th February 1915 which ties in with the arrival of 46th Division, survived the war and was disembodied on 24th January 1919

Regards

John

Hiya,

You beat me to it! - I was going to reply to the effect that my man had surviving papers and quote you his attestation date. I can add that my man's mother originated from Tibshelf and that he did indeed work at Bestwood Colliery. Your ancestor must have signed on the dotted line within a very few days of Nester. Tibshelf (known as Tibbie to the locals) is about 7 miles away from where I am typing this.

I actually bought the medals to sell on, but decided to keep them after discovering the Tibshelf connection. Since then I have obtained an Imperial Service badge to mount up with them, so I guess they are staying with me now!

What a small world!

Warmest regards,

Mike

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Hi Mike

I was just about to let you know his mother was from Tibshelf but you beat me to it. Michael Nester was from Whitwick in Leicestershire. You mention small world's I know Bestwood Village well as I grew up in that part of Nottingham, in fact my cousin used to live in the village.

I had a quick luck at the medal roll but nothing else, but at least I can start getting men off the roll based on the renumbering.

I will have to try the War Diary later as away from PC at present

Regards

John

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I know this is my man rather than yours, but Nester's brother also served during the war, and I think I uncovered evidence that their father was a former Cavalryman. I actually know Whitwick quite well too, as one of the organisations I used to work for had a small factory there.

Regards,

Mike

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Hi Mike

On the 1911 Census Walter has four siblings - a brother John and three sisters.

It appears John originally joined the Black Watch as S/7795 Private in January 1915 but ws discharged after a week as unlikely to become an efficient soldier. There is a pension record on Ancestry with his address being 7 Bestwood Colliery Road, so the right man.

The only MIC I saw shows John Nester serving as 18488 Private with the 9th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment and 598592 Private in the Labour Corps. He entered theatre on 29th August 1915, and was discharged to Class Z Reserve 31st March 1919

I did find information regarding a Michael Nester being in the Royal Dragoons, but he was from Lancashire not Leicestershire and I don't think he was the same man.

Regards

John

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Bit off topic, but though I'd post a great picture of (what I believe to be) the ASC for County of Derbyshire Territorial Force Association.

post-4619-0-77692800-1438016443_thumb.jp

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But on closer inspection I think that they are from the Staffordshire Brigade

post-4619-0-22134900-1438016580_thumb.jp

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Staffs ASC?

post-4619-0-39315600-1438016771_thumb.jp

Staffs below

post-4619-0-62759800-1438016853_thumb.jp

Not sure about these

post-4619-0-09636700-1438016892_thumb.jp

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Hi Mike

Great photos thanks for sharing.

Agree some confusion over unit. Certainly one man appears to have Staffordshire knot on his badge and others appear to be ASC badges, but shoulder titles are not Notts and Derbys. (I think??) I have seen these as a T above ASC above Notts and Derbys. and these appear too small for that. Possibly T above ASC but could be Staffs.,Lincolnshire or Leicestershire

Regards

John

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Those without the ASC badges seem to be Royal Artillery - the scroll is too long for staffs - and that is a gun rather than a knot - you can just make out its trail.

Don't ask me about shoulder titles though - I know nurthing!

Cheers,

Mike

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Agree that the two men together do seem to be artillery, but I would go for "T ASC STAFFORDS" (or Lincolns or Leicesters) for the ASC man - certainly not Notts & Derby - must have nicked the waggon then!

Just looking at the high res scan it seems a knot for the Staffords…….

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