Lewis guns fired from the hip?

[johnboy]

Could Lewis guns be fired from the hip?

From a newspaper report about ww1.

On October 18, the battalion started their advance on Selle in thick mist. Walford found a horse and undertook a personal reconnaissance.

He then led the assault with Lewis machine-guns being fired from the hip, capturing the village and a complete German artillery battery. Records show he displayed “conspicuous courage and skill”.

[Stevie]

I don't see why not . It was done with Bren guns in other wars.

[4thGordons]

I believe I have seen accounts of this. One here in a medal citation.

I think I have seen reference to the idea that two Enfield slings linked together and looped around the stock and the barrel shroud could be used to support the weight (the Bren is about 23lbs I think the Lewis was 5 or 6 heavier).

I would be interested to see "conclusive" evidence of this.

Chris

[johnboy]

I don't see why not . It was done with Bren guns in other wars.

I am talking Lewis guns during WW1. Normally used with tripods to support the barrel and one man aiming and firing and one man supplying refilled drums.

[Mark Hone]

This has been raised on a thread at least once before. It could indeed be fired in this way. There is a vivid depiction of a Lewis gun being fired from the hip, using a strap, in the 1980s TV series 'Anzacs'. Whatever its shortcomings in other areas, this programme had excellent military advisers.

When someone in my section decided to fire a Bren gun from the hip during an OTC exercise, the Para instructor bawled out: 'Who's bl!!din' Errol Flynn?'

[trenchtrotter]

Even the MG 08/15 could be fired from hip. Lewis also but not terribly accurate.

I am sure Johnboy meant bipod and not tripod above??

TT

[Guest]

It could be done but not comfortable. Click

Mike

[stanleyrbl]

From the Shoulder also when required.

[4thGordons]

Blimey Cpl Passmore must have had some strong arms... I just checked and my recollection was correct re Lewis Gun weight: 28lbs, I am not sure I could hold that up to my shoulder let alone fire it there!

[Stoppage Drill]

1955 movie . . . .

[johnboy]

I have seen a picture of one being held in the shoulder position. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the gun was almost recoiiess.

I can imagine that it could be fired from the hip but how effectively?

Aiming it would be the obvious problem but firing in the general direction of the target would probably have got some results. The 'magazine' held 47 or 97 rounds. The rate of fire 500/600 rounds per minute. In the action described there is no mention of the loader or ammo carrier.

[Beerhunter]

Here's a link to a précis of our fortieth anniversary machine gun shoot. The Lewis looks from from recoilless. (Please note it has BIPOD.)

As one who has fired a Bren from the hip I don't see much of a problem with a Lewis.

[James A Pratt III]

I have also read accounts from WW I of soldiers firing Lewis guns from the hip during an attack

[Chris Henschke]

There is a page and a half on firing from the hip in S.S. 196 The Tactical Employment of Lewis Guns, January 1918. Here are some extracts:

"Appendix I.

Firing The Lewis Gun from the Hip.

1. The possibility of firing the Lewis gun from the hip, in the same way as the French use their Chauchart automatic rifle, was demonstrated in the early days of the Somme offensive ; and during 1917 a number of instances have occurred of its successful and unsuccessful use, both with and without a sling. The Lewis gun, fired from the hip, is less effective than the Chauchart--a weapon which is about half its weight, fires more slowly, and has more portable ammunition--but at times it has undoubtedly proved useful.

2. The advantage of being able to produce heavy fire while moving is obvious, both in covering an attack and in pursuit. But this use of the Lewis gun is open to several disadvantages, and must be used with great discretion."

It then goes on to say that the aim is less accurate, it makes the gunner very conspicuous, and that "changing magazines or remedying stoppages from this position makes it difficult for the gunner to keep abreast of the leading line, while if he does fire continuously he may be encroaching dangerously on his supply of full magazines, and his gun may be getting hot before he has to meet a counter-attack."

The Appendix concludes ;

"3. To sum up--The Lewis gun can be fired from the hip without a sling for a short distance ; the employment of the sling undoubtedly lightens the task of the firer, but the sling must be capable of rapid attachment or detachment.

Material effect is uncertain, but the moral effect is considerable, and where sufficient covering fire cannot be applied in other ways, this method may prove of value in keeping down enemies' heads...It must therefore be used where special circumstances demand it, and no one but the commander on the spot is able to decide on the right time for its introduction."

Chris Henschke

[johnboy]

Thanks for that Chris and all who have replied.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On October 18, the battalion started their advance on Selle in thick mist. Walford found a horse and undertook a personal reconnaissance.

He then led the assault with Lewis machine-guns being fired from the hip, capturing the village and a complete German artillery battery. Records show he displayed “conspicuous courage and skill”.

Spooky, I've just this moment read of a similar incident that occurred on November 4th 1918.

From "1918 A Very British Victory" by Peter Hart p484.

"I swung my Lewis into action from the hip while Smailes [another soldier] let off a few telling shots with his rifle."

Sergeant John Stephenson, 1/6 Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment, 147th Brigade, 49th Division

[IPT]

Some Canadian shenanigans - "Hunter stood firing his Lewis gun from the hip, but when that proved ineffective, he dove for cover. Resting the Lewis gun on a stump, he opened fire."

[Koogs]

Here is a Lewis gun being fired standing, so the hip wouldn't be a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ene6LievhIE

[Andrew Upton]

The Lewis looks from from recoilless. (Please note it has BIPOD.)

The standard bipod was just one of several mounts trialed during the war. One of the ones more commonly associated with American use (another bipod of sorts) was a much more rugged design:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.allworldwars.com/image/097/LewisMachineGun01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.allworldwars.com/Lewis-Automatic-Machine-Gun-1916.html&h=391&w=750&tbnid=j1BfnjnqANHo9M:&zoom=1&docid=1QtVbeMGQQkjaM&ei=JKmhVZ7mJeSR7Ab3-rGoAQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CD0QMygIMAg

The British also made some use of the Lewis mounted on the MkIV Vickers/Maxim tripod, requiring the use of a special adaptor (one of many reasons it never came into general use):

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/303Lewis.jpg

[johnboy]

Another example

The following
were among the recipients of the M.M. : —

Private G. Norton : " After his leaders were killed he fought
his Lewis gun with exceptional ability and daring. In spite
of a worrying fire from a hostile machine gun, he chose his
positions so skilfully that he accounted for nearly fifty Germans,
firing from the shoulder with his gun resting on the back of
another man."

[Stephen Nulty]

One of my Prescot men....

http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info/alsoserved-72-William_Moran.html

[EastSurrey]

I recall that Sir Hugh Boustead, in his autobiography, described an incident he experienced in the Russian Civil War, when there was a surprise attack by Bolshevik cavalry on a marching column of infantry. He said that the man who saved the day was a quick thinking Rumanian N.C.O., who got a Lewis gun into action from a man's shoulder.

Michael

[gew98]

Well I tried the hip fire with a friends lewis gun yesterday. Yes it can be done. But after one 47 rd pan it got too hot to hold the jacket...need gloves to do it fo rmore than one pan magazine for sure.