trenchtrotter Posted 7 July , 2015 Share Posted 7 July , 2015 Just watched a You Tube vid on Berthier Carbines from WW1. The example shown had lots of small holes / dimples / indents on right side of rear stock. The commentator said these were from the soldier stripping the bolt and pressing down on the wood with the firing pin. TRUE or FALSE? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 7 July , 2015 Share Posted 7 July , 2015 Never having handled one of these I have no idea but it seems unlikely. Pushing the firing pin back would increase the load on the spring and I would think, make it more difficult to unscrew or otherwise remove any connected part. Comparison with Enfield bolts may be pointless, but I recall that with the NO 4 soldiers were not encouraged to strip the bolt. Could it be the case that pushing the face of the bolt against the stock was a crude test that the firing pin and spring were working. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 July , 2015 Share Posted 7 July , 2015 I cannot speak to whether those particular holes were caused by this practice BUT in order to disassemble the Berthier style bolt you do need to press the tip of the firing pin down on a hard surface in order to allow the firing pin button (retaining nut) to clear the cocking piece so it can be removed. SEE HERE - last picture/description Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 7 July , 2015 Share Posted 7 July , 2015 I recall that with the NO 4 soldiers were not encouraged to strip the bolt. "Not encouraged" isn't quite strong enough. Only an armourer was allowed to even remove the bolt head. Having said that, one needs armourers' tools to go any further. However this was not the case with other armies/rifles. For example the various German Mausers have a bolt stripping tool incorporated into the butt stock. However they also have serial numbered components, which British rifles do not. (That is to say only the bolt body is numbered to the rifle.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 7 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 July , 2015 Chris that's what the video intimated. Makes sense so I think I will go for true. My Lebel is so pitted just like the stock in the vid. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 7 July , 2015 Share Posted 7 July , 2015 As always, French weapons tend to be just different from other designs. (Ever take apart a Chassepot bolt...?) That said, I would say that even if the pits are caused by the firing pin during takedown, there is nothing saying they didn't occur post service... In my experience, it takes quite a bit of effort to compress the spring enough, even on a flat supported surface like a table. I can think of many things other than gun stock that would be eaiser to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 8 July , 2015 Share Posted 8 July , 2015 One lives and learns. I was not an armorer, perhaps just curious. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 July , 2015 Share Posted 8 July , 2015 This is an interesting question. It would be fascinating to compare how the training in the various armies approached this issue - so were French soldiers permitted/expected to disassemble their bolt as part of a routine cleaning regime? Were Germans? (yes I know there is a dismount ring built into the stock, however that does not mean it was done routinely by the common soldier.) I agree with N White - it takes quite a bit of pressure to compress the spring (and care to release it and not lose an eye / scatter the parts to all four corners of the room/trench) on the Berthier - it would not be something I would like to have to do with cold hands in a less than orderly environment. The bolt removal/disassembly on a Nagant is also a bit complex but the needed "tool" for removing the firing pin is built in to the firing pin guide....but were Russian soldiers allowed/taught how to do this? Perhaps the most complex process in this regard and one that left me sweating for a while is the Austro-Hungarian M1895 straight pull, it is not so much the assembly/reassembly (although that is fiddly) it is the reinsertion of the bolt which, if done incorrectly locks everything into a solid lump of metal (don't ask!) until you figure out which part to twist/pull and align. Compared to these, and even the Mauser, the Lee-Enfield mechanism is relatively straight-forward, yet we know that anything more than basic cleaning and lubrication was left up to armourers, although there was instruction in the inner workings of the rifle (and cut-away models made for the purpose). If anyone has documentation of the maintenance practices of other armies I would be interested in seeing it. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadin Posted 8 July , 2015 Share Posted 8 July , 2015 Been there, Done that with the M1895 Straight Pull...... Ever seen a bolt action rifle that used a V spring to power the striker?? Check out the Dutch M1871 Beaumont 11 x 52R....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gew98 Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 I don't believe the typical french soldier then was issued a screwdriver to remove the screw that held the bolt in the receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2015 What about the armourer being responsible if not the soldier? The French were masters of salvage / recycling. Remember these rifles saw service in many theatres from 1887 - 1945. Maybe if done by soldier not in trench but rear areas? Still seems plausible cause to me. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Hi Gew98, The screwdriver issued to French soldiers is known as “necessaire d’arms modele 1874”. There is a link below and if you look at that the item in question is in the sixth row of photos from the top. It was standard issue for all types of French rifle used in the Great War. It contained in its hollow handle a double ended screwdriver and a little scrapper which also served as an oiler. It was issued on the basis of four to each squad plus one to each sergeant and quartermaster. Regards, Michael. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=necessaire+d'arms+modele+1874&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=649&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=3Y2fVbezN8j9UtWYgaAL&ved=0CCYQsAQ4FA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Thanks Michael, more convinced now. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Remember these rifles saw service in many theatres from 1887 - 1945. I believe I have seen pictures of Algerian policemen with them (at least the carbines) in the 50s too. Michael - do you have a description or any general sense of the rifle maintenance/cleaning routine expected of French soldiers? I am still intrigued by the possible differences in this regard. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 11 July , 2015 Share Posted 11 July , 2015 Chris, Firstly, sorry the link I posted above failed to work. I will try to post a photo once I get my camera back in action. I'm afraid I don't have details of the French regulations for cleaning rifles. Dieter Storz in "German Military Rifles 88 and 91 Firearms" gives some detail of the German systems. He writes that the regulations by about 1902 ran to some 36 pages with the regulations differentiating between "regular cleaning", "thorough cleaning" and "cleaning after firing". I suspect the French regulations were just as thorough; quite how one goes about obtaining a copy of those regulations I can't say. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 July , 2015 Share Posted 13 July , 2015 Took some shots of the butt on my Lebel yesterday. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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