Hugh Pattenden Posted 13 November , 2004 Share Posted 13 November , 2004 Hi, I was just wondering why the CWGC does not have direct responsiblity for the maintanance of war graves from conflicts other than the two world wars, eg Korea. Thanks, Hugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 November , 2004 Share Posted 14 November , 2004 The simple answer is that its Royal Charter specifically names WW1 as the conflict its remit covers. A supplementary Charter later added WW2 and another added responsibility for recording the names of WW2 Commonwealth civilians killed by war causes (but not for maintaining their graves). Anything outside these limits would be a breach of their remit. No official moves have been made since WW2 to extend their remit. To do so would require the consent of the six member governments and a new supplemental Charter. This would be possible given the political will in all six countries. The exact Charter wording from the Supplemental Charter is..... "(viii) The Original Charter shall have effect and shall be deemed always to have had effect, when the context so admits or requires, as if any reference therein to "this present War" includes a reference both to any war existing between His Majesty King George the Fifth and any State during the period beginning with the fourth day of August One thousand nine hundred and fourteen and ending on the thirty-first day of August One thousand nine hundred and twenty-one, and to any war existing between His Majesty King George the Sixth and any State during the period beginning with the third day of September One thousand nine hundred and thirty-nine and ending on the thirty-first day of December One thousand nine hundred and forty-seven, and as the context so requires such periods may be referred to as "the War Periods" or "the 1914 to 1921 War Period" or "the 1939 to 1947 War Period" as the case may be;" That covering WW2 Commonwealth civilians is.... "(x) The Commission may exercise in relation to any persons who were subjects of His Majesty King George the Sixth and any persons who were under the protection or suzerainty of His Majesty, or were nationals of any territory mandated to His Majesty (not being persons included in the description of officers and men of Naval, Military or Air Forces) and being persons who died during the 1939 to 1947 War Period from war injuries wheresoever sustained, all or any of the powers given to the Commission by the Original Charter or by this Our Supplemental Charter, in so far as such powers relate to the compilation of records, as the Commission may determine;" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 14 November , 2004 Share Posted 14 November , 2004 I think there's also an issue about what kind of conflict constitutes a 'war'. For example I have seen gravestones of members of the security forces in Northern Ireland which have been made (by families) to look like the CWGC style ones, but the NI conflict isn't a war as such (depending of course on your view point). It's an interesting topic though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 November , 2004 Share Posted 14 November , 2004 Swizz The headstones to which you refer are probably standard pattern Non-World War Headstones. They look like CWGC stones but have clipped corners or wavy tops. See this thread http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...l=non-world+war They are available for all servicemen/women who died outside the world war conflicts or for 'old soldiers'. They have no connection with CWGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essexboy68 Posted 14 November , 2004 Share Posted 14 November , 2004 Swizz I actually thought, regardless of their remit, that the CWGC did look after other graves for service personnel. Here on the Isle of Man, where I visit the War Graves for RAF personnel who lost thier lives, we have CWGC headstones for non WW1 or 2 casualties. However, maybe I am wrong, but I do know that 2 headstones at Jurby, for personnel died in the 50s & 60s appear to have been replaced by the CWGC within the past 2 years. So, who does look after the Commonwealth War Graves in Aden, Korea, Malaya etc? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 November , 2004 Share Posted 14 November , 2004 Mark You are partly right. Non-World War casualties and their graves/headstones are not the responsibility of CWGC under their Charter and are not War Graves. These graves are the responsibility of either the next-of-kin or the MoD (for British graves) if they are in a military cemetery/plot. Here comes the wrinkle. CWGC is permitted under its Charter to accept contracts from other governments/official bodies to care for monuments/graves on a fee basis. The MoD has contracted CWGC to do this in most of its cemeteries. Therefore, CWGC does actually care for a high number of fallen UK servicemen from other conflicts although the MoD remains the responsible authority. CWGC cares for about 20,000 Non-World War Graves around the world including a large number of those from the many post-WW2 colonial conflicts. However, they do not care for the British graves in South Korea (they are under the care of the UN) or those from the Falklands 1982 conflict (cared for by MoD themselves - although CWGC is responsible for the WW1 and WW2 War Graves in the islands and they did design the 1982 cemetery for MoD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Pattenden Posted 14 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2004 Thanks Terry. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essexboy68 Posted 15 November , 2004 Share Posted 15 November , 2004 Terry Many thanks for the information, always interested to learn something new. If you or anyone is interested in the many war graves here on the Isle of Man, let me know, I'll gladly take pics & email them........ Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noe Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 How would one go about getting a 'non- war grave' made. Because my grandad who faught during the great war who risked his life, also being awarded a DCM for his bravery. But when he did die in 1970 beacuse at the time the family didn't have much money(before I was born) he was burried in a common plot with no head stone at all. Recently I had made a stone varse, as that was what I was only allowed due to the council owning the plot. I believe he deserves better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Noe The first thing you must do is to get the local authority's permission to erect a headstone as it seems they own the plot and apparently have strict rules. Many authorities do not allow headstones and others have equally restrictive rules. Permission also usually attracts a fee! Once you have done that you can have the stone made and erected. Below is the name of a competant mason used to manufacturing Non-World War headstones (name supplied by CWGC. I have no connection with the firm). S Masters Ltd Unit 2 Quayside Woodbridge Suffolk IP12 1NH Telephone 01394 383158 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_East Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Regarding Noe's point . I think I am right in saying that in New Zealand,plots are set aside for the internment of war veterans.A policy not followed in the UK. Regarding post war RAF graves, while the MOD assumes responsibility for their upkeep, a convenient RAF unit takes care of the graves at local level.I am lead to believe that RAF Coningsby undertakes the caring of this category of RAF grave in North Lincolnshire, reflecting the absence of a local RAF unit in this area. Regards Frank East Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Frank You are right about NZ. As with many other aspects relating to veterans, the NZ government ploughs its own furrow. The NZ government accepts all war related deaths for commemoration even after the CWGC cut-off dates (although they are still not accepted as War Graves by CWGC). Therefore in military plots in NZ you will see headstones for later deaths maintained by the NZ government. As RT has said in the past, the NZ authorities also issued Death Plaques for these 'late' casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 ... he was burried in a common plot with no head stone at all. Recently I had made a stone varse, as that was what I was only allowed due to the council owning the plot. I believe he deserves better. I have had a similar problem (see the Manning Pike thread in Utterly) with a man buried in common ground who died in the 1960s. Your best bet is to get very chummy with the person in charge of the cemetery. I have been given permission to place a CWGC-style headstone (to be made by the firm suggested by Terry D) in a position that was fairly close to where 'my man' is buried. However, I am still having problems getting this rubber-stamped by the authorities. If I didn't have the cemetery manager onside, authorisation would be even more difficult. I am looking at fees approaching £250 so far. It will cost you £1000+ to get a headstone made, with a turn-around of about six weeks. I also had a quote of about £300 to set the headstone (one of the conditions made by the cemetery is that you have to use their approved contractor). Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noe Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Hi, thanks all for the info. I first contacted my local authority earlier this year as what the cemetry grounds keeper instructed me to. I was told I was only allowed a 4x4" stone plus a £60 fee for putting it there. So in the end thats what I had to do. I had a varse made up with his details engraved. All in all it come to around £250 inc the £60 council fee. I just feel we owe these brave men a little more than a small stone, anything more is not allowed(due to it being a common grave). I never knew my grandad as he died before I was born, but I felt it was my duty to erect something in his memory as none of my rest of my family was interested. But saying that they said they was proud of what I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 17 November , 2004 Share Posted 17 November , 2004 In Canada, contact Last Post Fund for veteran's without headstones. See link here: http://www.lastpostfund.ca/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noe Posted 18 November , 2004 Share Posted 18 November , 2004 This would only apply to veteran's from Cananda I would presume though ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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