motojosh Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Added this very neat piece to my collection recently. Has three fraktur proof marks and to top it off a machine gun unit marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 I don't think it was made for Siam. Try China and for the export version of the M1888 Commission Rifle (Gew88). Length, blade and muzzle ring dimensions will help. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Hi Shippingsteel, German Bayonets Vol III by Carter and German Sidearms and Bayonets by Klaus Lubbe describe it as Siamese. Carter does state that the bayonet may possibly be Chinese though. There's a similar looking bayonet which differs in having a sloping pommel and longer blade which is described as Chinese. See here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=226943&hl=chinese#entry2253954 The blade length on mine is 252mm and the muzzle ring is 18mm. -Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Those measurements match for a German made 'export' bayonet that was made for China. It will fit the M1871 or M1888 rifles. I will stick with my original ID. John Walter says in 'The German Rifle' that "large numbers of unaltered guns [Gew88] were sold to China". This differs to the M1907 which has smaller MRD. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 I don't disagree with any research but I don't recall ever seeing a G88 (rifle) with Chinese markings? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 The Chinese used imported German Gewehr 88 and Mauser M1871 rifles, as well as making their own version of the 88, which was known as the Hanyang rifle. The Hanyang was an unlicensed copy, so possibly one of the earliest Chinese rip-offs.! But then again they've probably been doing just the same for centuries. See full photo here http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h224/Hardrada55/BoxerJingals.jpg with an enlarged copy shown below and used here for research purposes. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 The Boxers used the Gew 71/84 as well. Very interesting piece you have there. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 July , 2015 Share Posted 6 July , 2015 Nice find josh. I think I posted a question about these a couple of months back and listed the units known to have used these so have a search of GWF - can't do it myself as busy with people and Internet connections here unreliable. Added this very neat piece to my collection recently. Has three fraktur proof marks and to top it off a machine gun unit marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 6 July , 2015 Share Posted 6 July , 2015 Thats a really interesting bayonet motojosh. I've seen quite a few photos of German troops with these bayonets, but never seen one in the flesh. Great MG unit markings too. I wonder why they are so hard to find with German markings given that they seem to have been reasonably widely used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 July , 2015 Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Hi Josh, This one needs a bit of looking into... The MG marking seems ok, but the 'W' spine marking is an odd one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 German Bayonets Vol III by Carter and German Sidearms and Bayonets by Klaus Lubbe describe it as Siamese. Carter does state that the bayonet may possibly be Chinese though. There's a similar looking bayonet which differs in having a sloping pommel and longer blade which is described as Chinese. See here: Well, as you indicate Josh, the length and pommel and MRD are all ok for what Carter vol III, Lubbe and Carter, and Williams vol II defined as a 'Siamese' bayonet for a Gew.88, with Carter's aside that it 'may possibly be Chinese'. But I can't see in any of the literature that I have why Carter (and so William's) thought it might have been made for a Siamese contract! The marking looks fine to me - Williams shows an almost identical one, same unit in fact - '3.M.G.95'. My only hesitation with this one of yours is the 'W' on the blade spine. I cannot find any reference to one of these anywhere, although there is one of these bayonets with a ricasso mark of WEYERSBURG / KIRSCHBAUM&CIE. Can we see the three fraktur marks? Do they match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2015 Share Posted 10 July , 2015 Those measurements match for a German made 'export' bayonet that was made for China. It will fit the M1871 or M1888 rifles. I will stick with my original ID. John Walter says in 'The German Rifle' that "large numbers of unaltered guns [Gew88] were sold to China". This differs to the M1907 which has smaller MRD. Yes, the MRD measurement of Josh's bayonet is fine for a Gew.71 or Gew.88, but I'm a bit confused with this mention of the M.1907! So, just for clarification for this non-rifle person - what is this 'M1907'? Do you mean the Chinese version of the Mauser M.1904, for the 6.8 x 58mm? That has a longer bayonet of the same pattern as Josh's but different pommel and a MRD of 15.5. To the best of my knowledge, but I am tyro in these and many other matters, none or only a scant few of these rifles and their bayonets were actually exported to China, but were instead requistioned for German use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2015 Share Posted 11 July , 2015 A chance to catch breath and re-think and perhaps clarify some of the above comments... With the usual caveats! ... This differs to the M1907 which has smaller MRD. I believe that the 'M.1907' SS refers to here has to be the Mauser 6.8 mm ordered in 1906 by China of which only a few reached that country before 1911, the remaining 10,000 or so being re-chambered for the 7.9 mm and then issued to German reserve regiments in 1914/1915. The bayonet for these is the 'Chinese M.1907', with a TO mortice slot and a MRD of 15.5. The bayonet Josh has is one of those intended for the Siamese Type 45, originally ordered in 1903, with a T mortice slot and a MRD of 18 mm. ...Great MG unit markings too. I wonder why they are so hard to find with German markings given that they seem to have been reasonably widely used? Not so surprising really. German regulations were quite specific: only weapons already in service use when hostilities commenced were to be unit-marked; those in store or produced after hostilities commenced did not have to be marked. In practice, of course, many weapons issued post August 1914 and before 1916 were unit-marked. However, I have noticed that (to date), I have more examples of marked S.98's than of S.98/05's, which only became the regular service bayonet after mid-1915. Note also, that apart from this issue of whether or not bayonets were unit-marked after August 1914, there is the bias in the available sample - i.e., what was collected and what has been published since 1918. As an extreme example (again, just to date), I have recorded exactly three bayonets which are unit-marked to the Kgl. Bayer. 3. Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Karl von Bayern, a regiment originally raised in 1698 and in service throughout the GW. And of these three, one is a S.71, dated 1881, and two are S.71/84's, dated 1888 and 1894 respectively... So, where are all the unit-marked S.98's that the unit presumably carried between 1903/1904 - mid-1915? ... But I can't see in any of the literature that I have why Carter (and so William's) thought it might have been made for a Siamese contract! Now I know better - as above, the Siamese Type 45, ordered by Siam in 1903... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motojosh Posted 13 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 July , 2015 The Boxers used the Gew 71/84 as well. Very interesting piece you have there. - SW Thanks Sommewalker Thats a really interesting bayonet motojosh. I've seen quite a few photos of German troops with these bayonets, but never seen one in the flesh. Great MG unit markings too. I wonder why they are so hard to find with German markings given that they seem to have been reasonably widely used? Thanks as well jscott Hi Josh, This one needs a bit of looking into... The MG marking seems ok, but the 'W' spine marking is an odd one. For benefit of those not on the GB forum I'll post the link to the W marking shown on a Siam bayonet on the old-smithysite here as well: http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/fullsize/german/Germany%20siamese%201888%20W%20mark.jpg and the photo of the additional acceptance markings: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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