Canadian J Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 (edited) Good day everyone! This is a direct quote from the campaign, spearheaded by Norm Christie, Canadian Military Historian and Author, "44 members of the 16th Canadian Infantry Battalion, the Canadian Scottish, who died playing a heroic part in the April 1917 battle at Vimy may still be buried in a temporary grave in mine crater CA40. These heroes deserve a proper burial." Indeed they do! Here is the link for a very nice, interesting documentary that might inspire you to be a part of their recovery as funds will be needed! https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/4zeCb I had to share this with you all and hopefully these men will be recovered soon! All the best everyone! - J Edited 2 July , 2015 by Canadian J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 J. hope you don't mind, took the liberty of posting on WW11 talk Regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Just one polite question IF the fallen are where they are presumed to be why cannot they be allowed to rest in peace? Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Also..is the group "Help Recover Our Vimy Heroes." a registered charity, overseen by that countries equivalent to the Charities Commission? regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Also..is the group "Help Recover Our Vimy Heroes." a registered charity, overseen by that countries equivalent to the Charities Commission? regards Tom I don't think its a registered charity as one of the questions ask by a donor was if they will issue a tax receipt, the reply was no, so that being said they are unable to issue tax receipts as they are not a registered charity as recognized by the Canadian Govt for tax purposes. regards Bob R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Does anyone know the map reference for Mine Crater CA40? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 I don't think its a registered charity as one of the questions ask by a donor was if they will issue a tax receipt, the reply was no, so that being said they are unable to issue tax receipts as they are not a registered charity as recognized by the Canadian Govt for tax purposes. regards Bob R. Thanks for the update Bob.... I don't think we need to add any more to this topic...enough said!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Norm ChristieI'm afraid this campaign is not a registered charity. Tax receipts are not available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Does anyone know the map reference for Mine Crater CA40? Martin is there not a mine crater called ZIVY at Vimy Ridge where there are several fallen buried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 is there not a mine crater called ZIVY at Vimy Ridge where there are several fallen buried? There are hundreds of places all over the Western Front where it is said there are bodies buried...what should we do....go digging up France and Flanders on a body hunt expedition??? What also worries me is the groups that ask for donations to carry out a "project", how do we know where the money goes? If there are no published audited accounts of what's happened to the well meaning donors money, it just resembles another half baked plan which has no public oversight to govern the funds donated. regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 For any proposal such as this one I believe that firstly the project should be registered with the appropriate Charity Commission to ensure that such appeals for cash are both genuine and subject to scrutiny by a third party. Secondly there should be much more information of just what is proposed and detailed financial costings made available to potential donors. This bears no comparison with the Fromelles project where very detailed data was supplied to the authorities who then acting in an official capacity undertook the initial exploratory excavations. I do not think that this particular project has been thought through enough as there is also mention of the existence of possible names of the “missing” which if they are found would presumably entail DNA profiling to ascertain any identities. The initial sum required is £56,000 in GBP and my comments are not aimed specifically at this proposed project but all projects of a similar nature. Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roel22 Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Couldn't agree more, Tom. Roel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Why a private initiative? If there is 100% evidence about the 44 soldiers, the CWGC would have reburied them already with support from the Canadian government. It is their job to care, and if they do not than there is a reason. I think the neighboring crater contains the remains of 44 German soldiers. Stand by for my private entity to form. I need some 110.000€. I also will exclude the responsible VdK (CWGC equivalent) in this matter, circumvent the French authorities and I will not ask possible descendants whether their nok shall remain in the crater in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Why a private initiative? If there is 100% evidence about the 44 soldiers, the CWGC would have reburied them already with support from the Canadian government. It is their job to care, and if they do not than there is a reason. I think the neighboring crater contains the remains of 44 German soldiers. Stand by for my private entity to form. I need some 110.000€. I also will exclude the responsible VdK (CWGC equivalent) in this matter, circumvent the French authorities and I will not ask possible descendants whether their nok shall remain in the crater in peace. Nice one Egbert.. well put.....!! regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 I would think that $110,000 (£56,196.16) isn't a lot to, as stated, hire an engineering team and equipment; documenting the process; compensate local farmers and cover safety and security costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 One trusts that the basic research has been done; that these men are listed on the Canadian memorial at Vimy, that the CWGC maps showing the body density of recoveries etc have been checked, and that the permission of the relevant authorities has been sought. It is a bit surprising to me that if the location and number were known the IWGC didn't create another cemetery on the lines of the Lichfield Crater Cemetery at Thelus. keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 He has got a case that nobody named has been concentrated from those coordinates into Nine Elms. However, the GRU coordinates for the burial place do not put it near any marked craters but in the German front lines, I can't pin exactly where he is looking on the film but if he is on the correct location there will not have been a crater there. The GRU report does not say crater, not sure where he has that from; maybe like Litchfield and Zivy thinking they were all crater burials which they were not. He simply has to go through official channels, he cannot just survey a piece of ground in the way he thinks. A great shame as he could be correct, it looks as if CA40 never was moved as it was supposed to have been. He should also not mix up the VC winner Milne in the argument. There is absolutely no evidence to say he was in CA40. His could have been an isolated field burial somewhere further east, there being many recorded across that area. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian J Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Thanks for all the comments everyone, it's interesting to hear all opinions on the matter. I just hope, at the end of the day, the men are treated with the respect they are due, be it that they are properly reburied with honors like many of their comrades were, or left to rest in peace where they lay. I would like to say however that I have enjoyed Norm Christie since I was a child, especially his "For King and Empire" and the "Great War Tour" series documentaries and so I personally feel he is sincere in this endeavor. I do however appreciate the opportunity to learn more about this process from you all, so thanks for your input and interest in the topic! - J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 There are some serious questions to be asked in respect of this proposal not the least of which in my opinion are the ethical considerations involved with searching for and then exhuming human remains from their original resting place when this is not under threat from construction or development etc. Are these proposals serious for is it even possible to detect with any certainty the presence of human remains by non-intrusive methods as surely this must involve an element of exhumation which I personally find extremely distasteful. Put simply in my view when the fallen return to us through disturbance such as the Beaucamps Ligny 15 then as happened here all efforts should be made to properly remove the remains and attempt identification where it is possible but as for actively searching for the fallen then this is a definite no. Norman Added: Further to my second para above, in the video it is stated that the remains are anticipated to lie at a depth of between 7-9 metres, 23 - 30 feet and that in the case of Zivy Crater CWGC the remains were so mixed up that they were left in situ no reason then to doubt that the possible mass burial will be the same. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Buried with honours? Very few would have been buried with anything more than the padre saying a few words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 6 July , 2015 Share Posted 6 July , 2015 Norman has a point and it would probably be a much better course of action to present the evidence to the CWGC that they never moved the original burial site and thus a stone could be put in Nine Elms commemorating the fact that CA40 was lost (for whatever reason) and commemorating those recorded there. I assume as GRU named the site it must have had a cross with names on it and they must/should have recorded those names. A much better course of action that trying to unearth remains that have not been disturbed. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 6 February , 2016 Share Posted 6 February , 2016 There is an extensive discussion on this topic on the GWF sister forum in Canada: Vimy Ridge: Norm Christie and Nine Elms C.A.40 CraterI reported on another thread today that the Canadian Government (our Department of National Defence) will not become involved in the recovery of remains until the remains have been identified by the private organizations. If you have an interest in that project, you will need to read the details in the topic at the CEFSG, as there is a year of posts there. Norm Christie is a well known author and military historian here in Canada. He was the Chief Records Officer at the CWGC in 1992 and responsible for the status change on the Kipling headstone. That topic is discussed elsewhere. Norm's web site is here: Battlefields.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 1 March , 2022 Share Posted 1 March , 2022 The campaign ended on 14 January 2022 achieving 62% of it's goal. https://fundrazr.com/4zeCb?ref=ab_56ynsB6Hl4456ynsB6Hl44 Should we be awaiting some kind of announcement? Or is NC going to agree with me now and state the men have already been buried in Nine Elms Military Cemetery among the Unknowns? Several families are already aware, including that of Private William Johnstone Milne VC. I told them so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deutscherinfanteriest Posted 1 March , 2022 Share Posted 1 March , 2022 (edited) The same in every country in Europe. They died for us and nobody use public funds to recover them. All Fallen were betrayed by their nations In Italy a died Alpino found in 2016 on the Alps was hidden in a box in a Police Station for many years. Still to this day I do not know if he was buried in a Military Cemetery or not Edited 1 March , 2022 by deutscherinfanteriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 2 March , 2022 Share Posted 2 March , 2022 (Again) The campaign ended on 14 January 2022 achieving 62% of it's goal. https://fundrazr.com/4zeCb?ref=ab_56ynsB6Hl4456ynsB6Hl44 Should we be awaiting some kind of announcement? Or is NC going to agree with me now and state the men have already been buried in Nine Elms Military Cemetery among the Unknowns? Several families are already aware, including that of Private William Johnstone Milne VC. I told them so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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