Aurel Sercu Posted 29 June , 2015 Share Posted 29 June , 2015 I have a simple question, and I am sure I have the answer myself ... Somewhere ... I think it certainly must have been mentioned in the Forum. But even after Googling for half an hour (also CWGC) I just can't find the answer to my question : From what year does the "Age" an a headstone, and the epitaph date ? or : From what year on were they mentioned ? Or : from what year were the next-of-kin informed that if they wanted, the age and an epitaph could be given on the headstone ? Was this 1924 ? Before 1924 ? Later ? Al answers will be appreciated of course. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted 29 June , 2015 Share Posted 29 June , 2015 Not sure if I'm understanding you right, but surely the 'Age' is the man's age when death occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 29 June , 2015 Share Posted 29 June , 2015 Aurel, One of the three earliest cemeteries to be completed by the Imperial War Graves Commission was at Forceville in France, completed by 1921. A glance at the documentation for graves in this cemetery shows that many have an epitaph, so presumably epitaphs were available right from the start. There is no column on the Headstone schedule for age. Some families have added the age in the epitaph. Other (later?) cemeteries have a column for "Age" on the schedule. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 June , 2015 Share Posted 29 June , 2015 If I understand you right, it is the age at death? Well, in the UK 'Age' is usually full years achieved since birth at the time of death, and so a person is 'one' after the first birthday, 'two' after the second, and so on. The numbering system does vary from country to country though: e.g., in Turkey it is the year a person has entered immediately after the preceding birthday, and so in the UK my younger son is a mere 6, but here he is referred to as being 7... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tootrock Posted 29 June , 2015 Share Posted 29 June , 2015 I think Aurel is asking in which year did the IWCG start putting a man's age on his headstone, and when were epitaphs first added. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 29 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 June , 2015 Martin, Yes, this is what I meant indeed. Sorry to Graham and Trajan. I wish I had thought of the correct wording before Martin found out. Yes, I am especially interested in in what year the IWGC started putting a man's age on the headstone. (Or in other words, when they enquired with the next-of-kin if they wanted an age (and epitaph) to be mentioned, and what age.) So it must have been some time in the first half of the 1920s ? But a correct year (for the Ypres Salient at least) would be very helpful. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 30 June , 2015 Share Posted 30 June , 2015 It was taken from the Final Verification Forms sent out to the next of kin (I think these were pre-populated based on the info the army held). These were sent out during the 1920s, but I doubt it would be possible to be so specific as to what year etc as it would depend when the forms were sent out, when they returned them (or not - if no age is shown it tends to mean the NoK didn't respond), and of course when they put the final headstones up for a particular cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 30 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 30 June , 2015 David, Thanks. And - coincidence ! - before I read your posting I suddenly remembered : the Final Verification Forms ! So I looked at an example that I have (not directly related to the case I am researching), and saw that ... no date is mentioned. :-( So even if I had the Final Verification Form for the headstone I am interested in, probably it would not help ... So ... "during the 1920s" ... But should someone be able to narrow down, I would be interested to hear that ! Aurel P.S. (Added 8 minutes later) I have just read, on Tom Morgan's Hell Fire Corner website : (...) the sending-out of Final Verification Forms mirrored this. As far as we know, the first ones were sent to relatives in 1919 and the process of gathering information in this way lasted for more than ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 1 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Again only to say that this morning I talked to someone (in the Ypres IFFM Documentation Centre), and it seems true that already right after the war Next-of-kin were contacted to obtain information about the Age (and an Epitaph). Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 Hi The examples I give below refer to cemeteries in France. The first cemeteries completed did not have the age at death engraved on the headstone although the age was known as it was given in the original register for the cemetery. The stones in Corbie CCE did not have the age engraved and the FR number for Corbie is 23. This continued at least until Grovetown, FR 105 was completed in 1923. Auchonvillers MC is FR 36 and the original register is dated 1922 but there are many stones which have an age engraved on them. I have no explanation for this anomaly We must note that any replacement stones, in the cemeteries that did not engrave age, will have the age engraved. Some NOK arranged to have the age inserted but these are easy to spot as the age is in the wrong place. Epitaphs appear on original stones in all the cemeteries. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2015 Peter, Thanks. And it is the "Age ..." inscription I am interested in in the first place. For a piece of research I am doing regarding a soldier, the answer to the question "When was Age X engraved ?" (or better : in what year did the next-of-kin give the age information ?) is very relevant. But I am afraid this will be impossible to find. (I had hoped to find the answer in the man's preserved Army Documents, but : negative ...) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serreroad Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 Sorry I can't shed any light on the age issue, but the subject (and the mention of verification forms) does prompt another question. What determined whether a home address was shown in the cemetery register? Was it a matter of what the family wanted to see displayed in the public domain, or what the regiment was prepared to provide, or something else? I am struck by the lack of information provided by some Welsh regiments, but this may just be an anomaly? Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2015 Mike, Interesting question (to which I do not have the answer...) I have an example of what is called a Final Verification Form (though these words are not mentioned on such document). As we know the next-of-kin was expected to give : a) Age (at time of death) Personal inscription or text. Understandably, also had to be mentioned on that form that had to be sent : Date Address Signature Relationship to the deceased. So I guess these were used for the register ? I don't think these (specifically the address) were provided by the regiment ? Aurel P.S. I also sent a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 2 July , 2015 Share Posted 2 July , 2015 I imagine addresses were provided by the regiment insofar as that is where the forms were sent in the first place, if families did not update addresses with the authorities, then the forms were not delivered, and so no information was recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serreroad Posted 3 July , 2015 Share Posted 3 July , 2015 Thanks. I suppose that implies that if the next if kin (as listed) had died, moved away, or simply failed to respond to the "form" then only the most basic info would find its way onto the headstone and into the register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 May I add an additional question ? If the Age is mentioned on the headstone, but no epitaph, can we conclude that the family was ... well ... not rich (I know about the "cost of the personal inscription"). Or did not have enough inspiration ... (I have not had a look yet, but next time I am in a cemetery I will : what is the proportion of headstones with an Age, nut no epitaph. A minority ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serreroad Posted 8 July , 2015 Share Posted 8 July , 2015 Interesting question. I will also check when I'm back on the Somme in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 July , 2015 Well, I went to a local cemetery here yesterday evening (in Boezinge), and I had a look at the first 100 headstones that I saw with an "Age". Among them there were 81 with an epitaph. So let's say, this "random" test revealed that in this case 4 out of 5 Age-headstones also had an epitaph. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 8 July , 2015 Admin Share Posted 8 July , 2015 May I add an additional question ? If the Age is mentioned on the headstone, but no epitaph, can we conclude that the family was ... well ... not rich (I know about the "cost of the personal inscription"). Or did not have enough inspiration ... (I have not had a look yet, but next time I am in a cemetery I will : what is the proportion of headstones with an Age, nut no epitaph. A minority ?) Aurel You certainly cannot conclude the lack of epitaph was due to cost, the charge was in fact made into a voluntary contribution, See post 2 of this earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116340 There may have been doctrinal issues that precluded an epitaph, or it may simply have been that what the next of kin felt about the tragedy and loss that was the Great War could not be summed up in 66 letters. Although as your sample shows it is a minority. Christian churchyards today often have strict rules as to what constitutes an appropriate epitaph, though we know the CWGC allowed 'shot at dawn'. My great uncle's mother ended her life in poverty in the workhouse and although she was interred in an unmarked pauper's grave alongside her husband in 1924 still managed a short epitaph on his CWGC headstone, incidentally a family inscription, so cost was definitely not an issue. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 July , 2015 Ken, I am not sure it was a voluntary contribution. When I read the explanation on the form it seems to me - that certainly at the beginning - it was a cost to be paid. (3 1/2 p per letter / space) But of course, I do not claim that in all cases where only the Age is mentioned now, but no epitaph, the reason was 'cost'. We simply don't know. Neither do we know if there was no epitaph requested, that it was "refused". Maybe indifference ?Or no inspiration ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 My Topic and postings was 4 years ago ... But now I have another very specific question, for which I am 'hijacking' this Topic. (But as it is my own, without a shred of guilt ... :-) I'll keep it short. Has it occurred to anyone in his or her research that it was found that there was a significant difference between the Age mentioned on the headstone and the real age (found in a birth certificate, or maybe the Censuses, etc.). I mean : not a difference of only 1 year, or 2 (which in a way can be understandable), but a striking and remarkable difference of let's say 4 or more years ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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