SMLE 0.22 LR Trainers

[JMB1943]

There is a distinct scarcity of these in the market-place. Were they used only for public school/university OTC's ? Any data on numbers produced by RSAF/BSA/Lithgow/Ishapore ?

Regards,

JMB

[4thGordons]

They're not that scarce JMB - little bit pricey but at any given time there are half a dozen advertised on Gunbroker (for example)

Most of the early variants were conversions rather than produced new I think at least the majority I have seen were.

The most common variant is the Sht'22 IV* and these were made from new as well as being converted (this model was not approved until 1921).

I don't know of any source of numbers, Skennerton does not cite any as I recollect. I will check some of the WWII records I have notes on because they sometimes have numbers on hand which give a decent estimate.

Chris

Edit: and no they were also used by the Army/Navy/Airforce for training too.

Edited 28 June , 2015 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

A few examples:

Not a SMLE but a WO pattern with SMLE sights for a "Miniature rifle club"

Naval version based on a conversion of a MLE

A MkIV* but a conversion with a Parker Hale lined barrel

NZ cadet version shown in the other thread

[Old Scalyback]

Examples were still being used on the indoor range at the Army apprentices college Harrogate during the late 1960s , there being no sub calibre examples of the SLR available.

[Beerhunter]

There is a distinct scarcity of these in the market-place. Were they used only for public school/university OTC's ?

In addition to that list you can add the Army Cadet Force. One of our local units still had one in the 1960s.

They were the forerunner of the post-War No.8. The remaining No.8s are about to be scrapped because they don't go wrong and so the maintenance company can't make any money out of repairing them.

[T8HANTS]

I had a .22 IV* that was a smoothbore from back in the day when that was the easiest way to collect them - made a fun ratter! Sold it on wish I hadn't.

I have and shoot in competion, a 1885 Martini - Henry Bonehill .22 conversion, full woodwork. I suspect a lot of these were used to train the men of WW1.

I also have a full military spec No 4 in .22" that was part of a batch built in the late 1990's or early 2000's.

Sorry no pics, but I will if there is interest

G

[4thGordons]

I'd like to see the Martini - I have one also but I am struggling to remember if it is a Bonehill or Greener conversion.

It and the 1902 .303 Martini are relatively new acquisitions and I have not managed to shoot them yet.

I would very much like a No8 / No4 in .22 but I have not even seen one in several years.

Chris

[depaor01]

I'm the owner of a Parker Hale sleeved SMLE and rounds are inserted into the barrel singly by hand (i.e. not fed by the bolt). Are they all like this?

Dave

[4thGordons]

I'm the owner of a Parker Hale sleeved SMLE and rounds are inserted into the barrel singly by hand (i.e. not fed by the bolt). Are they all like this?

Dave

Most of them are yes, and the magazine spring and follower are removed and the empty cases can collect in the magazine body.

However there were some (.22 Short Rifle MkIII) which were magazine fed using a special magazine called the Parker-Hiscock "Magazine .22-in., Rifle, Mk I" which was approved in Dec 1915. These are quite complicated bits of kit that basically has a .22 magazine inside the body of a SMLE magazine. They are rare and much sought after. I have actually never seen one "in real life." although they are illustrated in Skennerton.

There was also one version (the .22 RF Short Rifle Pattern 1918) which used a "conveyor" basically a solid piece of metal shaped like a .303 round into which the .22 round is loaded. (so you have the .22 round inside what looks like a .303 round which meant the original magazine etc could be used. These used sleeved barrels. According to Skennerton 30 of the conveyors were issued with each rifle. This was declared obsolete in 1920 (TLES p423) so was short lived.

Most of the No4 derivative .22s are also single loaders but there is a post WWII version the No7 MkI which had a 5 rnd magazine (I think from a commercial .22 rifle) welded inside the magazine body.

Chris

Edited to add links:

Some good information on various .22s here

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.2_and_.22RF_Mk.III.html

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Miniature_calibre_adapters_and_conversions.html#The_Aiming_Tubes

Edited 29 June , 2015 by 4thGordons

[Old Scalyback]

As I recall it was necessary to load each round manually into the Breach with the bolt open. the purpose of using these old relics was to teach range discipline and procedures before letting recruits loose on Strenasall ranges with the SLR where the old ww1 ranges were still in use to accustom recruits to the sound of incoming fire in the Butts.

[JMB1943]

Thanks to all for the very useful info.

I did a Google search for "SMLE 22 Barrel Insert" (since 4thGordons had suggested I could use my No. 1 Mk. III* to shoot 22 caliber) and found some numbers of various Enfield conversions or made as 22 trainers at this link

http://www.enfield-stuff.com/regimentals/rifles/smallbore_trainers/index.htm

JMB

[Beerhunter]

Oddly, being a member of HBSA, I have seen a lot of the Parker-Hiscock magazines. We even had one turn up at a "show and tell" recently. The owner wanted to know what it was. :-)

In order to work correctly a modified bolt head has to be fitted.

As far as i know, there will be at least on of these on show at the HBSA Exhibition at Bisley next weekend during the Imperial Historic Arms Meeting. The HBSA marquee may be found on Short Siberia. Additionally the HBSA Arms Fair in the Umbrella Tent may even have the odd one for sale.

BTW I don't remember any No.4 conversions in use by the British Army. We had thousands of purpose-built No.8s for that job.

[4thGordons]

I'd be interested in knowing how much Parker-Hiscock Magazines go for.... the two I have seen advertised here were silly money.

BTW I don't remember any No.4 conversions in use by the British Army. We had thousands of purpose-built No.8s for that job.

I believe the Navy (and Sea cadets?) had No9MkI rifles in .22 which were conversions of No4s done by Parker Hale in the late 1950s (I think they did a couple of thousand). The ones I have seen were conversions of the No4 Mk2.

Cheers

Chris

[depaor01]

Most of them are yes, and the magazine spring and follower are removed and the empty cases can collect in the magazine body.

However there were some (.22 Short Rifle MkIII) which were magazine fed using a special magazine called the Parker-Hiscock "Magazine .22-in., Rifle, Mk I" which was approved in Dec 1915. These are quite complicated bits of kit that basically has a .22 magazine inside the body of a SMLE magazine. They are rare and much sought after. I have actually never seen one "in real life." although they are illustrated in Skennerton.

There was also one version (the .22 RF Short Rifle Pattern 1918) which used a "conveyor" basically a solid piece of metal shaped like a .303 round into which the .22 round is loaded. (so you have the .22 round inside what looks like a .303 round which meant the original magazine etc could be used. These used sleeved barrels. According to Skennerton 30 of the conveyors were issued with each rifle. This was declared obsolete in 1920 (TLES p423) so was short lived.

Most of the No4 derivative .22s are also single loaders but there is a post WWII version the No7 MkI which had a 5 rnd magazine (I think from a commercial .22 rifle) welded inside the magazine body.

Chris

Edited to add links:

Some good information on various .22s here

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.2_and_.22RF_Mk.III.html

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Miniature_calibre_adapters_and_conversions.html#The_Aiming_Tubes

Interesting stuff.

Thanks 4thgordons.

Dave

[Terrylee]

A .22 Sht. Rifle Mk.III. Unfortunately without a Parker-Histock magazine.

[Radlad]

Thanks to all for the very useful info.

I did a Google search for "SMLE 22 Barrel Insert" (since 4thGordons had suggested I could use my No. 1 Mk. III* to shoot 22 caliber) and found some numbers of various Enfield conversions or made as 22 trainers at this link

http://www.enfield-stuff.com/regimentals/rifles/smallbore_trainers/index.htm

JMB

Do a google search on 'Morris tube' . These were available in .297/250 (CF and used the same rear cartridge dimensions as .303) , .22 Cf and .22 rf. All these devices were still listed in manufacturers catalogues up to about WWII. Due to their small diameter , they were liable to damage and I don't think that many survived. They were certainly uncommon in the 1970's UK

[4thGordons]

Do a google search on 'Morris tube' . These were available in .297/250 (CF and used the same rear cartridge dimensions as .303) , .22 Cf and .22 rf. All these devices were still listed in manufacturers catalogues up to about WWII. Due to their small diameter , they were liable to damage and I don't think that many survived. They were certainly uncommon in the 1970's UK

The second link I provided above is all about morris/aiming tubes.

Functional reproductions are actually being produced/sold for SMLEs currently.

Chris

[Chasemuseum]

Here in OZ we were still using .22 trainers built on SMLEs as school cadets in the early 1970s until EGW disbanded the Cadets in 1975. My school's armoury had about 300 rifles including between 5 and 10 .22s (cannot remember how many now, if I ever knew), as well as half a dozen brens. We had to go across the highway to the battalion depot if we needed to draw SLRs or Owens. The school also had its own range for .22. A very different world to now.

The point is that there were a lot of .22 trainers made and used. The ammunition was much cheaper than ball .303; many depots had their own ranges, often indoor ranges. Cost and convenience made it a very useful training aid.

Cheers

RT

[Stoppage Drill]

The Morris tube cartridge, for training use was .297/.230 - it came in a short and long configuration. Because it was a bottle necked case, the smaller diameter part made the longer round look out of proportion, and a bit like a mini-Martini (.577/.450) round (to my eye, at least !)

The .297/.250 round was for sporting use.

The .230 dimension is why the original 1920 Firearms Act allowed a qualified exemption from the need for a certificate for "miniature" rifles not exceeding .23 calibre. The exemption has survived right up to date, though it is now "generally accepted" that it means .22RF. However, that is not what the law actually states. Vide ss. 11(4) of the 1968 Firearms Act, the current Principal Act

The Devizes and District Miniature Rifle League still operates using the exemption, though they only use .22RF Short.

Morris Tubes came in two patterns - a one piece insert for inserting from the rear through a Lee action after removing the bolt, and a two piece screw up for a Martini action.