Researching ways to Document rifle - connection to uniform

[Curious1]

Hi I am new and very impressed by the wealth of knowledge you all have here.

I am hoping to elicit some research suggestions on how best to find quartermaster records or documentation of when Lee Enfield rifles were issued to members of the Canadian 4th Infantry Battalion.

I know the name and military ID of the original owner (3036995), as well as his unit.

I have tried different search terms but to no avail and am wondering whether the info might be in a UK archive?

Would you all have any suggestions?

Backstory:

When I was about 14 and very interested in military history, a friend of the family from Long Island, NY, who had volunteered with the Canadian Expeditionary force, gave me his uniform blouse, dogtags and SMLE MKIII* # I 40682 complete with his bayonett.

Not realizing that there was any real value in the gun, I used it to drop my first deer at 250 yards.

Subsequently I have been shown the error of my ways, as the gun has matching serial numbers, original sling, cleaning kit etc, and in addition to the dog tags, the uniform has his name inside for what i suspect was a laundry label.

I have been able to find archive records that he was a lowly private in the 1st Depot Btn of the Canadian 4th Infantry battalion, and that they were issued their Lee Enfields upon arriving in Britain.

[4thGordons]

Welcome to the Forum

Your best bet would be to see if you can find the Unit War Diary for the 4th Canadian Infantry Battalion.

I know nothing really about Canadian Units but in general you might well find mention of the exchanging rifles (I am assuming here you are referring to exchanging M1910 Ross rifles for SMLEs?) in War Diaries.

I am not sure however if Canadian Diaries cover the period in the UK prior to going into the theartre of war so that may not help

Almost certainly a unit history of the Battalion will give you the date he arrived in the UK (This online source gives 14th Oct 1914 see here also several useful references at the bottom)

So if he was with the first contingent (I suppose that can be told from his individual record) and they arrived in the UK on the 14th of October and got to France on the 11th Feb 1915 (do you have his MIC -this will tell you when he first entered France) then you have narrowed it down to about 4 months. If he shipped over later then I would assume you would have to look at when he arrived in the UK

Somewhere I have some notes on when the Ross rifles were withdrawn/exchanged for SMLEs I will see if I can track down that date for you to give you another angle.

Chris

[4thGordons]

According to Phillips, R. and J Knapp. 1969 "Sir Charles Ross and his Rifle" Bloomfield Ont: Museum Restoration Services

Rosses were replaced by SMLEs in Canadian service in France "In the summer of 1916" (p17) and "By mid-September of 1916, the rearming of Canadians with Lee-Enfields had been completed."(p22)

if that helps narrow it down any.

Chris

[Beerhunter]

I am surprised that he was allowed to keep his rifle. There is no way on earth that a British soldier would have been allowed to.

[Curious1]

Thank you very much for the help.

I did find a history in the Canadian online archive. Pretty interesting.

https://ia700404.us.archive.org/29/items/records00gibsuoft/records00gibsuoft.pdf

Page 51

He looks to have been transferred in 6/5/18 and his ID was 3036995.

I believe the Canadians kept their weapons as potential militia

There is a paragraph in the history section that the battalion received their Lee Enfields upon arriving in England.

Would it make sense to search using certain terms and the rifle's serial number?

Thanks again

[gordon92]

War diary for 4th Battalion CEF: http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=4th+Battalion&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.collectionscanada.gc.ca%2Farchivianet%2F02015202_e.html&r=0&f=S

[4thGordons]

On a general level (outside of very very scarce circumstances) - it is usually simply impossible to discover anything about the service history of a particular rifle, particularly as it relates to an individual. From markings on the rifle it is often possible to put together a general timeline of refinishes/repairs/modifications and sometimes transfer between units but the scale of issue of rifles and their refurbishment/repair/reissue/salvage etc means that, as far as I am aware lists of which rifles were issued to which men during wartime are not available (if they ever existed.) There is a famous photograph of hundreds and hundreds of SMLEs that have been salvaged from battlefields stacked up awaiting sorting/repair/reissue (which was done from central stores as needed) which captures part of the scale of this.

The only lists I have ever seen that associated individual names with issue rifles was a pre-war list of a dozen or so rifles in a Territorial units what were being sent for modification (I believe they belonged to the rifle team so even here peacetime and atypical).

I suspect you will be disappointed in trying to find a documentary link.

What year/type/manufacturer is the SMLE? does it have any indications of FTR etc?

Chris

[Curious1]

Gordon92 and Chris,

thanks very much! the war diaries are fascinating and yet clear reminders of the numbing madness of the military bureaucracy!

kinda bummed that no way to better ID him and his rifle through quatermaster records = but given the volumes, it's understandable why not.

Rifle is 1918 BSA SMLE MkIII* #40682 all parts matching - unit badge on stock = 3 R E167 - (not sure how to interpret that since his blouse lapel pin has a B on it)

Thoughts?

Because our family friend was american volunteer from Long Island- not sure why he joined the CEF instead of US.

History says his original Unit was 1st COR with enlist date of 6/5/18 - and his TOS transfer in field date was 9/10/18.

He was in the 1st Depot Btn

I knew him through my mother and fox hunting.

He was master of hounds for Long Island hunt after the war, and when I met him he was still going out beagling and taking pictures of the local hunt on foot.