SAS Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 Hi all A DCM group turned up following a death in a Friends family and we need your help please with answering some unexplained questions. I am trying to build the final piece of this puzzle I need to find out why he got his DCM in 1919 and how he got it and that it was for actions at the first days battle at Mons as I think he was captured on that day. Was he the mystery figure on the roof that fired and covered the escape of his colleagues and assumed to have been killed. I suspect that as he was in D Company 4th Middlesex and all officers were either killed or captured that he only had the actions of the day reported when the Officer was repatriated after the war. I have tried the NAM - no luck here! war diaries - none written by D Company at National archives that I can find. Gazette - no details other than dates. List of Middlesex DCM citations - nothing but dates no citation. History of Middlesex regiment - no details He was captured on the first day and was sent back in 1918 with TB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 if he was captured 1914 then he got the DCM after his release from being a POW - maybe it was earnt whilst a POW ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 This man is in "Citations of the Distinguished Conduct Medal, 1914-1920" on Ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 17 June , 2015 Share Posted 17 June , 2015 His PoW records showing he was captured on 23rd August, 1914 at Mons can be found herehttp://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1721428/3/2/ http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1721428/1873/51332/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Thanks for your help guys - IPT have you seen the citation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 18 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Nothing at the ancestry site on his citation except the dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 Sorry. Worth a try. If it helps, I looked up 5 or 6 of the other men listed in the LG alongside English, and all of them were also prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 18 June , 2015 Share Posted 18 June , 2015 I recall an article in OMRS jurnal I think many yrs back about a Pte in RAMC I think who recd a DCM for his work among his fellow POWs during an epidemic of some kind, typhus maybe? Odds are the DCM in this discussion is also for POW service. Doubtful about him being the man on the roof of the train station fighting the rear guard action as all I've ever read says his name was lost to history. Seems any who did know who he was were killed so his deed went un-rewarded. Had it ben this man I'm sure there would've been a lot of publicity about the award & him coming home, in the Regtl journla or magazine at least & his hometown paper. A good medal in any case for a MONS POW!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 and Im sure most 1920 DCMS and MMs where POW related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 There appears to be a unique reference against each name on the register at the National Archives. I don't know what it means though, but presumably some kind of fuller record, or originating source. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 If you click back through the pages on the Gazette site it notes that "undermentioned rewards in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in the Field," as opposed to services as a POW. They were among the very few DCMs for which some sort of citation was NOT published, for whatever reason. The award is for Mons, in my opinion. His page: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31759/supplement/1220 Narrative page: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31759/supplement/1220 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 21 June , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2015 Thanks everyone - still trying to find out how and where he got it - would it be in the May diary for the 4th Middlesex. If I go to Kew do you think I might find the answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucass Posted 1 July , 2015 Share Posted 1 July , 2015 Hi there. The War diary for the 4th Middlesex is online at the National Archives and is available to download at a cost of £3.50 per part, so a visit to Kew is not necessary. I have searched through the War diary from the start(August 1914) through to June 1915 but can find no mention of English. I am a collector and researcher of Gallantry awards to the Middlesex Regiment but have no information on English. If you can let me have his date of death and I will search for a obituary in the Die-Hards Newsletter which sometimes show up additional information not recorded elsewhere. Could you also let me know what the group consists of and if there any photos of English as I am always keen to obtain them for my records. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucass Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Hi there. Managed to locate his death in 1925 and have located an obituary for him in the Die-Hards journal dated February 1926 which unfortunately does not shed any light on his DCM award but does give some background which may be of interest to the family. The late Sergt Cecil Edward English DCM Sergt Cecil Edward English DCM died at the Middlesex County Hospital, Isleworth on December 8th 1925 aged 38 years. The late Sergt Cecil Edward English was born in the Middlesex Regiment, his father being the Late RQMS English. He was educated at the Duke of York's Royal Military School, from which he enlisted on March 23rd 1901. He served during the South african War with the 3rd Battalion at St Helena, and was awarded the Queen's South Africa Medal. In the Great War he was captured at Mons and was not repatriated until July 2nd, 1918. He was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal, by London Gazette dated January 30th, 1920. He also possessed the 1914 star, British War and Victory Medals. The funeral took place on December 12th and the body was interred at Heston Cemetery. I am still trying to find the citation for the DCM and will let you know if I am successful. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Really Excellent Paul I have some pictures of the medals - mounted incorrectly and his fathers medals too. If you send me your e mail I will send you the pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 4 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Paul Do you know what these references are next to the LG citation and do you think that there might be an entry for a regimental diary for May 1919 when he got the award even though it only went to the Gazette in 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucass Posted 4 July , 2015 Share Posted 4 July , 2015 Hi there My Email address is brucass@aol.com. The reference next to the LG entry are the reference number for Army Orders where they are also published. I have spoken to a few other people and it would appear that for this particular LG entry was for POW activities however they feel that no further details will be found. I am awaiting other responses so will let you know. Can I ask, are they still in the English family, I only ask because when checking for his date of death I found an entry for Probate in which it says that his estate was left to a Mrs Jane Hayes(wife of William Hayes). regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 They are with his descendants. Does the May or June 1919 Die Hards magazine detail his award at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAS Posted 5 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 5 July , 2015 I think his award was 1919 as I suspect an officer was released and reported his bravery at Mons - he was D company and all the officers were killed or captured as they tried to stop 3 battalions of Germans crossing the river. My father has suggested it will be detailed in his army records which should be at Kew - would anyone know if this is correct? Are the records held here? Is it possible to get hold of the army orders at Kew that relate to the reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 I think his award was 1919 as I suspect an officer was released and reported his bravery at Mons - he was D company and all the officers were killed or captured as they tried to stop 3 battalions of Germans crossing the river. My father has suggested it will be detailed in his army records which should be at Kew - would anyone know if this is correct? Are the records held here? Is it possible to get hold of the army orders at Kew that relate to the reference. Service records records at Kew are also available on Ancestry and Find My Past - 60% of the records were destroyed in a WW2 bombing raid. It doesn't appear that service records exists for him unless he served after the war, in which the MOD may still hold the record. Do you know his date of birth ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brucass Posted 5 July , 2015 Share Posted 5 July , 2015 Hi Unfortunately no Die-hards journals issued during wartime, commenced in !921. The Army orders I believe are held at Kew however they will only show the same as the LG Looking forward to the photos of the medals. regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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