Type of machine gun - Lt Dease VC and Pte Godley VC

[Stoppage Drill]

The generic term 'Maxim' for all British MGs in 1914 was almost ubiquitous if the diaries are anything to go by. If it was a Vickers (which I think is highly unlikely) I suspect it would still have been referred to as a Maxim.

Just so.

This source, referring to that 11H photo, refers to the Vickers gun as a Maxim . . . .

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tij9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT155&lpg=PT155&dq=11th+hussars+machine+gun+section+zillebeke+trenches&source=bl&ots=9Wlj1BS1Mp&sig=I9UGYlDEBaFKBwqO0DcJPetl9Bo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CE0Q6AEwC2oVChMIjZ3u0bqUxgIVojrbCh1L2gBi#v=onepage&q=11th%20hussars%20machine%20gun%20section%20zillebeke%20trenches&f=false

Really, to summarise, and stop going round in ever increasing circles, the gun(s) used by D&G were almost certainly Maxims, not Vickers.

[Stevie]

In 1914, the Maxim was held in far greater numbers than the Vickers gun. it is far more likely that the gun used in that particular action was a Maxim. As far as the British soldier was concerned all machine guns were Maxim guns. The last Vickers gun I owned was a light pattern Vickers gun, serial number C8995. The light pattern being the one with milled-out receiver plates to bring down the weight. I only mention this because the tripod mount was marked... .303 MAXIM - V&G 1916. Proof that the word 'Maxim' was still in use even in 1916.

With reference to my earlier comment concerning the destruction of the guns with a grenade, a Mills bomb just resting on the open receiver would be more than capable of blowing apart the receiver and rendering the gun useless. I have also noticed the rate of fire being given as around 600rpm. The average rate of fire was around 450rpm. The condition of the fusee spring dictated to a great extent the rate which could be attained. Even a slight drop-off in the tension of the spring would significantly alter the rate of fire. There were also other factors which affected the rate of fire.

As nice as it would be to conclusively prove one way or the other which type of Mg was used in the action, this information is far less important than knowing what actually happened at the canal crossing. For me it is enough to know that two outstanding acts of bravery were carried out that day by two determined individuals armed with a machine-gun of unknown make.

Edited 16 June , 2015 by Stevie

[Guest]

A History of the British Cavalry 1816-1919. Volume 7: The Curragh Incident and the Wsetern Front, 1914" by The Marquess of Anglesey. Page 64:

"Each [cavalry] regiment consisted of three squadrons of 159 men and seven Officers with nearly 200 horses. The regimental machine-gun section with two Vickers guns had twenty-five men and four Officers. The British Cavalry regiments were the first units to receive the new Vickers guns in place of the Maxims which was all that the infantry had to start the war with."

MG

Edit. The earliest reference I can find searching the diaries with terms 'new' 'replacement' 're-equipped' 'machine gun' 'MG' is the 22nd Sep 1914 (2nd Bn South Lancashire Regt) and 30th Sep 1914 (1st Bn Queen's Royal West Surrey Regt). By late Nov early Dec in the wake of First Ypres during whole-scale refitting, battalions right across the BEF were organising MG training classes - multiple diary entries - which might suggest an early date for the widespread introduction of Vickers with the Infantry.

[Muerrisch]

In 1914, the Maxim was held in far greater numbers than the Vickers gun. it is far more likely that the gun used in that particular action was a Maxim. As far as the British soldier was concerned all machine guns were Maxim guns. The last Vickers gun I owned was a light pattern Vickers gun, serial number C8995. The light pattern being the one with milled-out receiver plates to bring down the weight. I only mention this because the tripod mount was marked... .303 MAXIM - V&G 1916. Proof that the word 'Maxim' was still in use even in 1916.

With reference to my earlier comment concerning the destruction of the guns with a grenade, a Mills bomb just resting on the open receiver would be more than capable of blowing apart the receiver and rendering the gun useless. I have also noticed the rate of fire being given as around 600rpm. The average rate of fire was around 450rpm. The condition of the fusee spring dictated to a great extent the rate which could be attained. Even a slight drop-off in the tension of the spring would significantly alter the rate of fire. There were also other factors which affected the rate of fire.

As nice as it would be to conclusively prove one way or the other which type of Mg was used in the action, this information is far less important than knowing what actually happened at the canal crossing. For me it is enough to know that two outstanding acts of bravery were carried out that day by two determined individuals armed with a machine-gun of unknown make.

No Mills bomb available in 1914

[Stevie]

No Mills bomb available in 1914

I am already aware that Mills bombs were not available in 1914, but thank you for reminding me anyway. The point being made was that the grenade did not need to fit between the receiver plates to destroy the gun. Obviously that would be impossible with any type of Mills bomb. Just resting and exploding on the receiver with the top cover plate open would be more than enough to put the gun beyond use.

[Khaki]

I presume that there was a standard procedure for the destruction of a Vickers or Maxim (under ideal conditions), but Godley may not have been aware of them or necessarily capable of carrying them out. I wonder what the 'manual' says relating to denying the gun to the enemy.

Anyone know?

khaki

[auchonvillerssomme]

When I started this thread I thought there might be some discussion but not 3 pages worth, I still think it was a maxim for all of the reasons cited above, but I think we all agree that unless someone hits us in the face with the evidence, never say never. I also think that if they had been vickers, fairly recently issued, used for the first time in action, mention would have been somewhere.

I certainly appreciate the great information provided, I'm also now intrigued about any official instructions about destroying the guns.

Mick

[Guest]

The link to the Vickers Machine Gun website has just about everythingg, including the ability to download the handbooks. click

Handbook here click might have the answer. It has an interesting section comparing the Maxim to the Vickers

MG